Fifty-Dollar Paint JobPage 1 of 24
Fifty-Dollar Paint Job – Part II
Okay, so you've jumped in with both feet. Time to learn how to swim... fast! If you really would like to have it come out nice, concentrate on just one piece, the hood for example, or a fender, it doesn't really matter which. Don't worry about the rest for now, that's the beauty of this method; you don't HAVE to paint the entire car at once. If you can't hold off doing the whole car, take a break after the second coat. A serious break, because now is the time to make a big decision. After you're done, and the paint is fully dry - give it a full day. Step back and really look at what you've done. You'll probably have, as 69Charger so eloquently described, a "WTF am I doing!" moment. That will pass. Once it has, take a closer look. You say you were having lots of bubbles, but when you gave them a good puff, they would disappear, right? My experience with this is that's okay. Not ideal, but manageable. The important thing is to get all those bubbles to pop BEFORE the paint gets "tacky". If not, forget about trying to re-roller it, you'll just pull up paint and it'll look worse. That's where concentrating on one panel at a time comes to your advantage, if you go too fast, and come back to correct mistakes after the paint is already starting to dry, you'll have a mess on your hands.
So, back to the break. Here's the big decision - how does it look now, and how good do you want the final finish to look? If you see mistakes; bubbles, runs, sagging, etc., NOW is the time to sand them out smooth, BEFORE you go any further. If you don't do it now, and decide after two more coats that it isn't smooth enough, it just means your going to need to do twice as much sanding to get it right. Take the time after the first two coats, you'll be thankful you did. If you end up completely removing the paint to get rid of the errors, better two coats than four. And don't be surprised if you do, because if you're mixing it right, the first two coats are going to be thin. That's the whole idea. The fridge was originally white, and I painted it Sunrise Red. I felt that it wasn't really until after the 5th coat that I could really tell that the base color was completely covered. It may not take as many with the dark paint, only you can tell.
As for the bubbles in the paint can, did you have them tint it for you, or was that a "stock" color? If they tinted it for you, did they use a shaker to mix it up? If so, you may have to let the paint sit for a few days, maybe even a week. I took 69Charger's advice and mixed each "batch" well; slow, steady "stirring", for nearly 20 minutes. As he said, once you think you've stirred it enough, stir it some more.
My experience was that you're better off OVER diluting with mineral spirits, rather than UNDER diluting (I did both). If you over dilute, the paint will have a greater tendency to run on you (nearly all my surfaces were vertical), but if you just keep gently rolling it, it will eventually set nicely. Don't over roll it, just enough so that it no longer wants to run on you. I actually found that with my over diluted batch, if I rollered horizontally, across the grain if you will, it helped stop the running quickly. The alternative of under-diluting creates much more serious problems; the paint will get "tacky" before it gets a chance to spread and lay down properly. If you try to correct this by re-rollering it will lift the paint and look like a mess. If you let it go as is (too thick) you'll get orange peel. Not a total bust, but it will just mean more sanding for you.
I'll stop here because I've already talked too much. Anyone else want to chime in with some words of advice or encouragement?
Nothing ventured, nothing gained - that's my attitude. Forget all the nay-Sayers out there, they're a dime a dozen. ADVENTURE, my boy! The joy is in the journey, not the destination.
If you have bubbles you can put the paint (with lid on) in the refrigerator over night. Then let it warm back up to room temp. This should get the bubbles out of the liquid. Just don't paint it when its that cold. Let it get back up to room temperature on its own. Cheap
I think if that's the extent of the bubbles you are seeing after you dilute with mineral spirits, I think you're okay. Mix a little longer and you'll see the number of bubbles decrease, but to be honest I never completely got rid of them, and had no problems. I believe 69Charger mentioned that if you still have a fair amount of bubbles once you've poured it in the tray, you can skim the surface to get rid of the excess, but honestly I never bothered. I found that instead of rolling out the paint from the roller as you would in traditional house painting (using the corrugated section of the tray), I just rolled it in the deep section, pulled it out to let the excess drip off, then went right at it. It seemed as thought the more I was able to get on the surface immediately the better, spreading it out quickly so that I didn't have to roll too much to spread it out. Make sense?
More about the bubbles - it was my experience that you WILL still get bubbles when rolling it on with the proper dilution, even if you over-dilute, at least in the initial minutes of application. If the slight puff pops them, fine - as long as you try to get them all gone as quickly as possible - let the paint spread. After a couple of minutes, you can go back over any areas that still have the very tiny bubbles as "69" describes, but do it EVER so gently - just the weight of the roller. If it feels like it's trying to pull up the paint - STOP! You can fix it in sanding. This process of re-rollering to totally eliminate any tiny bubbles is definitely where the "art" comes in. I didn't really "get it" until the fourth coat, then BINGO - it all made sense to where I was able to repeat it consistently.
It's a little hard to tell from the photos how the finish really is, that's a judgement call you're going to need to make. What makes you think it was too thick? You say you're not seeing any orange peel, so that's good. I'm willing to bet if that's the case that you're not too far off on the dilution. When the paint is completely dry (no more tacky feeling), run your hand over the surface nice and gently. Feel any rough spots? Feel any spots rougher than others? If so, I would take the time now to sand it out and correct the problem before you go on to the next coat, especially if you think it's too thick. Remember, the point of this is to put the paint on thin, so it's not going to cover up any underlying flaws.
On a last note, I'm really interested to see your progress - KEEP the PHOTOS COMING!!! I have two gallons of the MASSTONE TINT BASE sitting in my garage - untinted as of yet, but I've been contemplating black. It's a bit of a scary thought as black shows EVERYTHING. BTW, when they tinted yours, did they mention any kind of special tint, or did they just use the standard tinting formulas? I asked the Home Depot "paint-guy" and he simply said that he could just punch in "Rustoleum" and the tint system would know. I wasn't all convinced he wasn't just making it up as he went, but I guess I have little choice. Did they give you a selection of "Rustoleum" colors to choose from, or did they just mix up the color from a swatch?
Ricklandia - excellent advise, seems like you really got a handle on it, i agree with everything you said.
Some things that come to mind, never, ever, never mix and enamel on a shaker!!!! only stir, unless you want to make that vacuum table that was discussed pages ago, or you can hitch a ride on the space shuttle to take it into the vacuum of space! Also after mixing the paint in you pan, definitely skim the surface of the paint with a paper towel, that reduces the bubbles by half in my case. also don't introduce the roller until you have mixed the paint. The reason I don't clean the roller with mineral spirits is the bubbles, use a new one every time, they're cheap. When you roller, try not to roller really fast, or start out rollering fast and then go over it about 10 times slow right after spreading out the paint, you have to practice and just find that "sweet spot", if you don't have a old trunk, door, or hood, then just do the hood to start with, a lot easier to sand down the hood than the whole car!
“WTF am I doing?” This sounds like a good name for a club. I think I may have come across a WTF moment. Have you guys used PENETROL with Rustoleum? I came across it while I was at Home Depot shopping for stuff to paint my car with (I can’t believe I just said that.) Its web site states it’s a rust inhibitor, enhances penetration and adhesion, makes paint flow more smoothly, and reduces brush marks and leveling problems. So in the spirit of research and adventure I said, “WTF” and volunteered to use to the hood of my bug for an experiment.
PENETROL is about the same consistency as Italian dressing so I couldn’t quite mix it to the “water” consistency 69Charger recommended. The closest I could get was the “Malox” consistency Exit1965 mentioned. This resulted in a dilution of 40-60% (depending on the weather), even though the PENETROL instructions recommended a 10-40% dilution. I was in such a hurry to try it, I rushed through 69Charger’s instructions and got mixed up. When he mentioned having a roller in one hand and a foam brush in the other, I thought he meant to apply the paint mixture with a roller first then use a foam brush on the same area. As to how to apply it, I wasn’t quite sure, so I thought it might be like the application techniques used in the Coach Painting website- So I first rollered in a horizontal then in a vertical motion, then brushed horizontally/vertically with the foam brush, then again lightly with the foam brush first horizontally then vertically to prevent the paint from furrowing.
When I first applied it, there were the bubbles left behind from the roller trail, but they would disappear on their own, form miniscule orange peels then settle. I went for the maximum drying time (24 hours.) When it did dry, there were no bubbles or orange peel, just the microscopic trails left by the brush. I was impressed with the general smoothness and gloss.
Once again I mixed up 69Charger’s instructions and sanded not after the 2nd coat, but after the 1st coat (600 grit.) I sanded after the 2nd coat too, but the finish was so smooth, I just jumped straight to 1000 grit. When the 3rd coat dried , it looked good enough to polish right there.
As with any paint technique, I know you need a good surface to begin with. So I applied a primer/sealer first, then sanded it as smooth as I could. Another reason why I used the primer was because I didn’t want to risk the adhesion problems others had with Rustoleum. I may have not needed it though. I noticed that a drop of the Rustoleum-Penetrol mixture which had fallen on a non-primered area, passed the scratch test after 3 days.
I apologize to 69 Charger for f***ing up his instructions, but in my mess-up I think I’ve stumbled across a new, barely explored branch to this budget painting thread. Oh no…not another thread!
It's probably going to need body work, so get yourself some hand blocks, a 17.5" long board, several packs of 80 grit 3m long sandpaper, some 180, fibreglass resin, a couple gallons of Bondo, and a gallon of acetone to clean your Bondo application tools.
My Rustoleum mixtures didn’t include mineral spirits; I just used the Penetrol. The 3rd picture shows how the hood looked after it dried; no polish at all. I could see the reflection of my butt-ugly face head on, but I could also see minute dust specks and tiny brush marks. I’ll try to get a picture after I put on the final coat with polish. But that may be awhile too. I'm concerned that the Coach Painting site recommends polishing after 7 months of hardening! So I guess I'll have to try polishing at different stages. I’m convinced that Rustoleum is inferior to Tremclad, so we have to be a little more creative in order to get the same results as 69Charger got.
I’m just as new to this Penetrol stuff as you guys are. It’s not time tested like 69Charger’s. After I applied the mixture and let it dry I went, “Whoa, WTF just happened? I gotta show this to the others.” Since we’re all experimenting here, I just felt I had to share my observations. Others who are just about to jump in may be able to add to or enhance our findings. It’s all part of the “adventure “(as Ricklandia put it) we’re on. That's what's so freakin' cool about this thread!
And Exit1965, I can understand your thoughts about wanting to hang up your rollers. Honestly, you Mopar guys are driving works of art. They SHOULD be painted with high end paint jobs. My bug isn’t even worth half of a cheapy Earl Sheib/Maaco job, so 69Charger’s roller technique is perfect for me. Best of luck amigos!
Body Work Tips (Prep Work)
From GTSDave
MAKE SURE YOU USE A SANDING BLOCK! Use the rubber sanding blocks that can be found at Wal Mart. You can usually find pre cut paper in 1000 and 2000 grit there too. I usually pick mine up in the spray paint section. I have at 2 different Wal Marts.
For the areas that are too round to use the sanding block, use a sponge. I use some small sponges that I buy at the auto paint store. They are about the same size as a sanding block but only a 1/4 “ thick. I fold the paper over the ends then fold it in half. That way it holds my paper and I can bend it around odd shapes. The whole reason for this is the flatter you can get the wet sanding the better it will come out. If you have groves from your fingers on the back side of the paper, it will show up as ripples even after you buff it.
I would be using a softer grit of paper. I prefer to use 1000, then 2000 then buff. For yours since you still have more coats of paint to go, I would use the 600, then re-coat it, then go to the 1000, and finally 2000 and buff.
Your goal at this point is to get the orange peel out of it. That can only be done by water sanding and taking your time. You want it to come out dull with no shiny spots. Each little shiny spot is a low spot. Once those low spots are out, you will re-apply your paint and it will be MUCH flatter, and easier to get a good shine when buffing.
I never use anything rougher than 1000 on a final coat. It would be too hard to buff it out. I try to use the 2000 for all of it, but if the orange peel is too bad, I use 1000 then the 2000 then buff.
For those that don’t thing they can get the full shine back after wet sanding, they probably used paper that was too rough.
Keep in mind I spray automotive finishes on my cars, but the enamel you guys are using will shine as good as any enamel if it is buffed properly. It took me a while to learn to use a buffer correctly, but now my results are fantastic! I use McGuire’s Diamond Cut to get the water sanding paper marks out, and then follow up with some of the hand glaze.
Polishing with a buffer is the same as sanding; you are just using liquid for the abrasive. Compounds come in different “Grits” as well. I always use foam pads on my buffer. I also use a different pad for different compounds. I NEVER reuse a pad with a different “Grit” compound.
OH and use Straight strokes not circles while wet sanding.
This is with my base clear paint after wet sanding with 2000 grit and a rubber block. I had a LOT of orange peel on the deck lid, and wet sanded it out.
-Dave
This is the end result after buffing with the Diamond cut and a foam pad. I then followed it up with a hand glaze. I painted this car in my garage with a base clear paint system. I have been painting cars since I was 16, so I already had lots of equipment. I did spend about $1k for materials and lots of hours of labour.