Evidentiary Matters (Open Session)Page 1
1 Tuesday, 10 September 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning, everybody. May we please hear the
6 case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner assisted by Ruth Karper,
11 case manager. May I thank you Your Honour for the extra time you gave me
12 this morning.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And for the Defence, please.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Danilo
15 Cirkovic for the Defence.
16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
17 For the record, it has to be emphasised, first of all, that due to
18 the continuing illness of Judge Fassi Fihri, today we proceed under Rule
19 15 bis. As planned, let me please start making reference to the Status
20 Conference yesterday. As consented and explicitly consented by the
21 parties, we prepared yesterday the admission into evidence of some
22 documents. Yesterday, Judge Vassylenko took the opportunity to go through
23 all the documents. Later on, we discussed these, and we came to the
24 following conclusion: That based on this, the documents contained in List
25 7 all can be admitted into evidence explicitly, also Number 299 where,
1 during the Status Conference, it was not yet quite sure whether or not
2 this document was ripe for admission. But in the meantime, the Office of
3 the Prosecutor provided us with the complete English translation of this
4 document. Therefore, there is no reason not to introduce and admit this
5 into evidence.
6 On the other hand, I have to recall that a document with the ERN
7 number 03048407 is only - and this is true also for the future - is only
8 provisionally admitted as Exhibit S318 because the Defence asked for the
9 best possible original and to decide on the basis of this then available
10 document.
11 So therefore, to conclude, it is hereby confirmed that all the
12 documents in List 7 are admitted into evidence under the numbers given to
13 those documents provisionally yesterday. In addition, the following
14 documents that had been earlier already a discussion were admitted: S254,
15 S267, S73. I have to recall that for the following documents, there are
16 still some problems: S242, S217, S210, S227B, S157-1.
17 Thank you. I just now got the hint not as the transcript reads,
18 and apparently I gave the wrong number. It's not S318, but 308, which was
19 not admitted into evidence from List 7.
20 We were aware of the objections given by the Defence, but based on
21 the discussion yesterday, we came to these conclusions. And for this
22 purpose, please, the transcript of yesterday be part of today's transcript
23 following immediately the pagination of today's transcript. All the
24 reasons and the discussions then can be immediately found on the basis of
25 this entire transcript.
Tuesday, 10 September 2002Case No. IT-97-24-T
Procedural Matters (Open Session)Page 1
1 Finally, I have to add that to Witness 65 ter Number 16, pseudonym
2 A, is attached and the additional documents provided by the OTP are
3 admitted under Rule 92 bis save the diary, diary which was not translated,
4 but the parties agree that it's not necessary to have these parts
5 translated. The necessary parts form part of the witness's testimony as
6 such.
7 May I ask the parties, do you consent to this procedure? OTP,
8 please.
9 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, subject to the same agreement the
10 Defence made yesterday, we do.
11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence, please.
12 MR. LUKIC: We also consent to these proceedings, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.
14 May we then come to today's witness and first of all hear what
15 about protective measures? Normally it changes on a last-minute basis.
16 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, I'm afraid because of
17 yesterday's slightly dramatic proceedings and events in Brdjanin/Talic, I
18 never saw him and asked him if he was content. As far as I know, he will
19 testify in open session and no pseudonym required. And I think he would
20 have mentioned it. But perhaps it might be just as well if before his
21 name is given in open court, we just ask whether he is content.
22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told by - helpfully by Ms. Karper as
24 ever - that we have here the original of S308. If anybody wants to see
25 that at this stage.
1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, can we do it during the break.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes, certainly. And S318 as well, so it's 308 and
3 318 are both here.
4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you very much.
5 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, can I just mention something else,
6 normal circumstances, you would have had, and Mr. Lukic, an extra document
7 from me, simply detailing two matters that the witness spoke to me about
8 yesterday. I've told Mr. Lukic that there was a problem yesterday, as I
9 say, and I didn't have an opportunity to put this into writing, but he
10 doesn't object. Firstly, the witness told me that although he knew
11 Dr. Stakic, or knew of him, because he was another doctor, he had never
12 met him and wasn't aware that he was anything to do with politics.
13 And secondly, he told me of an incident that took place in
14 Trnopolje where a woman was shot, but it seems that Mr. Lukic was aware of
15 this already. So I'm passing this on in advance. I'm sorry that it
16 wasn't in written form.
17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. There shouldn't be an obstacle --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- Such extreme health problems with another
20 accused in another case, no doubt, this has priority.
21 I don't see any obstacle to start immediately with the witness.
22 MS. KORNER: No.
23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the usher please escort the witness into the
24 courtroom.
25 Could we please, to be on the safe side, start in private session
Tuesday, 10 September 2002Case No. IT-97-24-T
Procedural Matters (Private Session)Page 1
1 and ask the witness whether or not there is due cause shown for any
2 protective measure.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm sorry, it is
4 something I should have asked. I don't believe there will be a problem.
5 [Private session]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
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11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
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24 [redacted]
25
Tuesday, 10 September 2002Case No. IT-97-24-T
Witness: Idriz Merdzanic (Open Session)Page 1
Examined by Ms. Korner
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [Open session]
5 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: IDRIZ MERDZANIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examined by Ms. Korner:
9 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, is your name Idriz Merdzanic?
10 A. Yes, that is correct, my name is Idriz Merdzanic.
11 Q. And were you born on the 2 second of January, 1959, and so you are
12 now aged, by my addition, 43?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And are you a Bosniak by ethnicity or nationality?
15 A. Yes, I'm a Bosniak.
16 Q. Dr. Merdzanic, I want to ask you about the events of 1992, between
17 April and September in particular. But can I just ask you a little bit
18 about your background, first. I think it's right that after leaving
19 school, you attended the faculty of medicine in Banja Luka.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. And did you do so between 1978 and 1986?
22 A. Yes, I attended the medical school, the medical faculty, in
23 Banja Luka.
24 Q. I think on completing that part of your education, you did your
25 military service with the JNA, in fact, with a helicopter unit?
1 A. It is common knowledge that in our country, all military-aged men
2 are liable to mandatory military service, which is what I did. And I was
3 a member of the helicopter unit, but as a physician.
4 Q. Now, after you had completed your military service, did you get a
5 job in an outpatient clinic as a general practitioner in Prijedor?
6 A. Correct, yes, at the Prijedor health centre.
7 Q. I think that was an internship, and thereafter, having passed your
8 final exams and obtained your license to practice, did you get a full-time
9 job as a physician in Prijedor?
10 A. The internship lasted one year. It was not specialisation. It
11 was an obligatory internship that one is supposed to do after completing
12 the faculty of medicine. After that, one has to pass the professional
13 examination, which I did, and after that, I was given a permanent post at
14 the Prijedor health centre.
15 Q. Now, I think the Prijedor health centre actually covered a number
16 of different areas including Trnopolje, Kozarac, Omarska, Ljubija, and
17 others.
18 A. It covered the entire area of the Prijedor Municipality.
19 Q. And in 1991, did you begin working at a clinic which was part of
20 the sawmill in Kozarac?
21 A. I was first in charge of the local clinic, outpatient clinic, in
22 Trnopolje. And in addition to that, I was also assigned to the sawmill
23 outpatient clinic in Trnopolje, but that was only, as far as I remember,
24 twice a week.
25 Q. Right. I'm sorry. Did you say Trnopolje?
1 A. Correct. I was in charge of the Trnopolje outpatient clinic, and
2 I worked as a physician in Trnopolje. And in addition to that outpatient
3 clinic, I was given an assignment at the sawmill in Kozarac where I was in
4 charge of treating employees of that company.
5 Q. All right. Now, can I move straight away to the accused in this
6 case, Dr. Milomir Stakic. Did you personally ever meet Dr. Stakic before
7 1992?
8 A. We do not know each other personally, though there is a
9 possibility that we may have passed each other somewhere in the street.
10 But as I said, we don't know each other personally.
11 Q. Did you yourself take any interest in politics after -- between
12 1990 and 1992?
13 A. I was never involved in politics. I didn't have time for that,
14 but I also never expressed any interest in politics, and I am not
15 interested in politics to this date.
16 Q. Did you ever become aware of Dr. Stakic's entry into political
17 life?
18 A. I wasn't aware of the fact that he was involved in politics, but I
19 heard that he was working in Omarska as a physician there, that he got a
20 job there.
21 Q. Can I, then, move to asking you, please, a little bit, just about
22 events before April of 1992. We know that the village of Kozarac, for
23 example, was primarily a Muslim village. You, yourself, I think were
24 living in Prijedor. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, I was living in Prijedor.
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1 Q. Before the multiparty elections in 1990, were there any problems
2 or difficulties between the various ethnicities in Prijedor?
3 A. I personally didn't notice any such thing and did not personally
4 experience any problems. I had many friends amongst Serbs. I think that
5 I had more Serb friends than any other ethnicities.
6 Q. When the war in Croatia started in the middle of 1991, as far as
7 you were concerned, did that make any difference to relationships between
8 ethnicities?
9 A. I think that it did bring about certain change, that is, the JNA
10 had mobilised all military-aged men to fight in Croatia, in the war in
11 Croatia. Muslims and Croats, the majority of them, did not want to
12 respond to this mobilisation whereas all Serbs went and even volunteered
13 in many cases to go to Croatia to fight the war there.
14 Q. And did that have any difference on the attitude that Serbs took
15 towards the Muslim or Croatian population in the Prijedor area?
16 A. Yes, it did make a difference. Even such people who failed to
17 respond to the callup were -- were tracked down by the military police,
18 and then forcibly taken to the front. The result was that both Muslims
19 and Croats had to go into hiding.
20 Q. I want to move from there to 1992. Did you become aware or hear
21 about any arms being distributed, weapons?
22 A. As the war in Croatia had been going on for some time, it was
23 quite natural for people to talk about war, about the events throughout
24 ex-Yugoslavia. It was through these conversations that I found out that
25 most Serbs had been given weapons. Some people said that those weapons
1 had been distributed by the Serbian army, and only given to certain
2 families. On the other hand, most of the Serbs who went to fight in
3 Croatia, once they returned home, they would not bring their weapons back
4 to the army barracks but brought the weapons home instead.
5 Q. Now, when did you first become aware that there were problems
6 arising in Prijedor?
7 A. What problems exactly are you referring to?
8 Q. First of all, problems of movement.
9 A. As far as movement is concerned, there was a military unit that
10 had fought in Croatia. It was a combat military unit which took Prijedor
11 overnight literally. They stormed all the important buildings, the
12 municipal building, the courts. They set up checkpoints. And the next
13 morning, on my way to work, I was stopped at a checkpoint. I had to leave
14 my car. I had to open the trunk of my car. I had to produce my
15 documents.
16 Q. And that was on your way to work where?
17 A. I was supposed to be on my way to work, my work in Trnopolje. But
18 I realised that there would be a lot of difficulty entailed in that, so I
19 went to the health centre in Prijedor in order to ask and find out what
20 was going on and whether it was possible to go to work outside of Prijedor
21 in the first place.
22 Q. And were you -- sorry.
23 A. It was then that I noticed that there were military in the health
24 centre, and they also IDed me.
25 Q. Were you able to go to work that day in Trnopolje?
1 A. I don't think I was able to go to work on that particular day.
2 Q. All right. Now, can you remember how long before the attack on
3 Kozarac did that incident take place?
4 A. I couldn't tell you precisely.
5 Q. All right. So these checkpoints were set up, and the buildings in
6 Prijedor had been taken over. Did you continue -- I'm sorry.
7 A. Yes, in Prijedor.
8 Q. Did you continue over the next few weeks your work in Trnopolje
9 and in Kozarac?
10 A. The next day, I went to work. I was being stopped and IDed at
11 checkpoints. But apart from that, there was no further difficulty
12 entailed in getting there. There was also a checkpoint at the crossroads
13 outside Kozarac, and there was a tank there.
14 Q. Now, can I move, then, to how things built up. You told us that
15 there was a checkpoint at the crossroads outside Kozarac and a tank. Did
16 you become aware of other army personnel or vehicles in the vicinity of
17 Kozarac?
18 A. I did not myself see any, but I heard that both artillery and
19 tanks had arrived in Prijedor and had been deployed at certain
20 strategically important points.
21 Q. And was one of those points around Kozarac?
22 A. I suppose so. But I do not really know myself.
23 Q. All right. Now, how easy after the arrival of artillery and tanks
24 was it for people to leave Kozarac?
25 A. At the very beginning, yes, you could leave Kozarac through the
1 checkpoints. You had checkpoints not only near Kozarac but also in
2 Orlovci, that's between Kozarac and Prijedor. And the other road, if you
3 took the road from Trnopolje for Prijedor, there were also checkpoints
4 along that road. But ever since the ultimatum by the Serbs concerning
5 Kozarac expired, from that moment on, Muslims were no longer allowed to
6 leave Kozarac.
7 Q. Now, can I ask you about the ultimatum, please. What was the
8 ultimatum?
9 A. As far as I knew, what the whole situation was really about is
10 that the ethnic makeup in Kozarac was almost 98 per cent Muslim. And it
11 was the same with the Kozarac police force. The police were supposed to
12 accept Serb insignia and put up Serbian flags all over Kozarac, but they
13 refused to do so. Negotiations took place, and as far as I know Stojan
14 Zupljanin led the Serb party in these negotiations. I can't remember
15 exactly who attended for the Muslim side. I think Esad Sadikovic was
16 there, and some other people from Kozarac and Prijedor, too.
17 Q. All right. So there were negotiations. How did the negotiations
18 end up, as far as you know?
19 A. I think that they were not successful. What I heard is that
20 Stojan Zupljanin did not really come there to negotiate. He gave an
21 ultimatum and gave a deadline. And he said unless his conditions, his
22 requests were met, by that time the army would take Kozarac by force.
23 Q. Who did you hear about all this from? Did you hear about this
24 from people involved in the negotiations?
25 A. I heard about this from my patients and from the personnel, people
1 who worked with me. This was a much debated topic in those days.
2 Q. Did you ever hear over the radio or on television any ultimatum
3 about a deadline for the surrender of weapons?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Did you have a radio?
6 A. No, we did not have a radio set at the outpatient clinic, but I
7 can't remember anyone telling me about seeing or hearing anything on TV or
8 the local radio.
9 Q. All right. Now, were people who were in need of hospital
10 treatment allowed to pass through the checkpoints?
11 A. When the ultimatum expired, people were no longer allowed to leave
12 Kozarac.
13 Q. I want to come on, then, now, please, to any actions that you took
14 before the attack. Did you speak to any Muslim leaders in Kozarac before
15 the attack?
16 A. Immediately before the attack, when the ultimatum expired, I heard
17 from people I talked to in Kozarac that Sead Cirkin, who was an active
18 military officer, was trying to organise some sort of defence for Kozarac.
19 I heard that there were some armed people. One of the workers from the
20 sawmill - I can't remember his name now - took me to see Sead Cirkin. I
21 asked him to. I wanted to talk to Sead Cirkin to see what the role of the
22 outpatient clinic would be in the case of an attack. He was staying at