Engineering-CAD Minutes 11-6-06

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February 6, 2007

A meeting of the Engineering/Computer Aided Drafting (CAD) Advisory Committee was held on November 6, 2006, at the Menifee Valley Campus, Learning Resource Center, Room 105a, Mt San Jacinto College. Minutes of that meeting follow:

1.Attendees

The following members were present at the meeting:

2. Welcome and Introductions.

Laurie McLaughlin opened the meeting a 5:15 p.m. She welcomed the attendees and explained the importance of advisory committees to the college. The college must determine if its programs are relevant and current. Input is needed from businesses and industry to guide us in this process.

The members introduced themselves.

Ms. McLaughlin pointed out to the members that the college is always looking for associate faculty members in all program areas who are qualified to teach the curriculum offered. She encouraged them to apply if they are interested or to spread the word to others who may be attracted to teaching.

Ms. McLaughlin reviewed the contents of the packet for the attendees. She discussed the college internship program. She defined an employment concentration for the attendees—less than 18 units in a specific subject area that provides sufficient skills to attain entry level employment.

3. MSJC Program Update

a.Engineering Curriculum

(1)Current Courses.

Brian Hess discussed the course outlines currently approved for the Engineering program. The approved courses available at this time include:

ENGR 093 Technical Mathematics 4 units

ENGR 154 Computer-Aided Drafting I 3 units

ENGR 155 Computer-Aided Drafting II 3 units

ENGR 164 Plane Surveying I 4 units

ENGR 165 Plane Surveying II 4 units

ENGR 166 Legal Aspects of Surveying 3 units

ENGR 167Global Positioning Systems3 units

Mr. Hess is currently working on a course outline for mapping. He told the members that Plane Surveying I is offered every fall and Plane Surveying II is offered in the spring.

The Global Positioning Systemscourse was written a couple of years ago after a mailed survey. It was stalled due to budget cuts at the time. It,instead, became part of the GIS program, but has not been taught yet.

Legal Aspects of surveying is offered once a year or once every year and a half. Linda Beck, an MSJC student, asked if this program prepares them for the Land Surveying Training state test. Mr. Hess answered that it does.

(2)Proposed Expansion of Surveying Program

Mr. Hess drew the members’ attention to a sheet he had created with proposed courses to be added to the current program (attached). With the expanded courses the program would lead to a certificate in Land Surveying. The construction surveying course would aid students who not only wanted to be surveyors but also those wanting to work in construction. There would be two classes: Advanced Surveying and Public Lands and Boundaries.

In response to a question regarding the difficulty in getting certificates approved, Ms. McLaughlindiscussed the levels for certificates and their approval process. Certificate programs under 18 units can be offered without approvalfrom the California Community College Chancellor’s Office. Certificate programs 18 units and over must have Chancellor Office approval, which takes longer and is harder to accomplish.

Ms. McLaughlin asked the members if this program will turn out employees with the skills needed in this industry. Also, is this needed by students to have a better chance of getting a job? Mr. Scott Vinton, whose company hires surveyors, said that he felt this program was right on track with what students need to be successful in this field.

The question was raised as to where surveyors are currently trained. Mr. Vinton said they usually start off as chainmen but he doesn’t really know where they are getting formal training.

Another member stated that although the numbers needed for construction surveying is in a decline right now, it could be back up at any time. It is all tied to the economy.

Ms. McLaughlin asked the members if we should maintain the employment concentration for entry level courses; is it what students need? If a student completes our employment concentration can they find a job? The consensus was that they can find employment and from there they can work on the expanded program to reach for their Land Surveying Test (LST).

Mr. Hess reminded the members that the Inland Empire is going to continue growing. He has heard extensive talk at various meetings about the need to get students ready for the growth that is inevitable. Many of his students are getting raises from their employers just because they’ve finished one of these classes.

Mr. Singanayaham stated that Geographic Information Systems (GIS) and CAD skills are needed to produce maps and drawings. His company has 5-6 people just for this purpose. He would really like to see an employment concentration that consists of CAD and GIS courses. He knows of several companies looking for staff with these skills. Mr. Carder gave some examples of the many ways GIS is being used. It is growing in importance.

RECOMMENDATION: Explore the possible development of an employment concentration that consists of CAD and GIS courses.

Mr. Thomsonpointed out that CAD should be taught before learning GIS because it is based on CAD. There was a general agreement that CAD is needed before learning GIS and GPS; it should be a prerequisite course.

RECOMMENDATION: CAD should be a prerequisite to GIS and GPS courses.

An advisory member mentioned that the collegemay need to review the basic surveying course to insure it meets all of the requirements for all the interlocking fields being used in development. Mr. Hess stated that principles still need to be taught and he would like to keep the Surveying courses basic. The members generally agreed.

RECOMMENDATION: The proposed curriculum for the Land Surveying certificate is relevant and appropriate. This certificate program should be adopted.

b. Computer Aided Drafting (CAD) Curriculum

(1) Mr. Thomson discussed the CAD classes currently being offered:

ENGR 154Computer-Aided Drafting 13 units

ENGR 155Computer-Aided Drafting 23 units

The AutoCAD 2006 program is being used. There are no prerequisites and there are many dropouts because students don’t know anything about engineering. Mr. Thomson covered what is taught in each course and how the students are assessed. He helps students to prepare a portfolio of drawings in the first semester. In the second semester they assemble the drawings. He likes to use what they created during the first semester and have the students further develop the pictures with 3D.

Mr. Vintonasked if they get into lisp routines or 3 dimensional drawings. Mr. Thomson said that he tries, but there is usually not enough time. Ms. McLaughlin asked if knowing these routines would enhance the student’s background. The member’s felt that although it would be nice, it isn’t necessary as most of this is learned in the field. Ms. McLaughlin asked if we should consider offering short, topical courses for extras such as this that would enhance a student’s knowledge. After a discussion the consensus was that CAD is a skill whose need is growing in a multitude of fields. It is basic in all manufactured goods and the school might like to look at a possible employment concentration that includes CAD I and II and GIS.

RECOMMENDATION: Mt San JacintoCollege should explore an employment concentration that includes ENGR 154, Computer-Aided Drafting I, and GIS 115, Introduction to Geographic Information Systems.

4. Additional Items

a.Mr. Lyonbrought up two items. First, he feels that architects should be required to take a course in State Plane Coordinates. Due to an increasing need in the industry more documents are being required in 3 dimensional drawings. Need CAD operators. Second, there is a need for continuing education classes for Land Development Desktop (LDD) using fully functional civil engineering software.

b. Ms. McLaughlin closed the meeting by asking members to read over the course outlines and use the feedback formincluded in their packets to address anything they may want to cover or ask about.

c.Ms. McLaughlin told the members that we will have a new technology building opening in approximately 18 months on the Menifee campus. We will be asking some advisory members for a review of the building at some point to make sure we have what is needed to teach these classes appropriately.

5. Adjournment

Ms. McLaughlin thanked everyone for coming and participating in the discussions. The meeting adjourned at 7:06 p.m.

Attachment: Surveying Program