Soc: 18 Now Then , Assume That Within the Soul Itself There Is the Expectation of These

Soc: 18 Now then , assume that within The Soul Itself there is the expectation of these feelings/affections ;

c

on the one hand , the expectation felt prior in the sweet , confident hope of the pleasant things to come ,



and on the other hand , the expectation felt prior in the fearful suffering of the painful things to come .



Pro: This is indeed then , another species of pleasure and pain , that arises by the expectation

’

of the soul itself separate from that of the body .

 .

Soc: You understand correctly , For I think that in these , in my opinion of course , the doubt about pleasure



will be made clear , for as it appears , each of these arise pure and unmixed with the actual pain or pleasure .

,,

For we question if the whole genusof pleasure is desirable , or rather , must we attribute this desirability ,

d 

to some other one of the genera mentioned before . Whereas pleasure and pain just as the hot and the cold

 , 

and all such things , are themselves sometimes desirable , but at other times not desirable , by on the one hand ,

,  , 

not being good , but on the other hand , some of them are at times also receptive of The Nature of The Good .

.

Pro: You are quite correct in saying that we must now track what we are pursuing in some way as this .



Soc: Now then on the one hand , let us first agree on the following point ; if indeed what we said is truly so ,

 : 

e that on the one hand , their destruction gave rise to suffering , while on the other hand , their preservation

 , 

gave rise to pleasure , let us now bring to mindthe case of those neither undergoing decay nor restoration .

 :

In whatstatemust each of these living beings be at the time whenever this state is thus maintained . Now then ,

 . 

earnestly offer up your mind to what I say . Is it not necessarily the case that at this time every living being



neither feels any pain nor feels any pleasure at all neither small nor great ?



Pro: This is necessarily the case . ( .)

Soc: Is it not the case then , that there is for us a certain third disposition such as this besides either the one



of feeling pleasure and besides the one of feeling pain ?



ProCertainly , what then ? ( ;)

Soc: Come along then , and now do your best to remember this . For to remember this judgment or not



will be of no small importance for us in the matter concerning pleasure . Thus , if you are willing ,

' 

we should follow through with a few brief words concerning this matter.



Pro: Words about what ? ( .)

Soc: You know that there is nothing to hinder one from living the life of mindfulness in this way ?

' 

Pro: You mean The One that feels neither joy nor pain ?

b

Soc: Yes , for it was said in the comparison of the (3) lives , that the person who chose The Life of Intellect



and Mindfulness should at that time not to feel any joy , neither great nor small .



Pro: And to be sure it was said in this way .

 .

Soc: Is it not the case then , that That Life would indeed thus be The Hyparxis , and perhaps it is



by no means absurd to say , that of all the lives It is The Most Divine Life .



Pro: It would not be reasonable indeed that The Divine feels either pleasure or its opposite .



Soc: Thus on the one hand , it is not very likely . But at any rate , either one of these are inconsistent

: 

with the Divine Nature . But let us consider this further at another time , in so far as it may pertain

c

in any way to the account and to The Life of Intellect , surely then we shall apply it to



winning second place , if we can not apply it to winning first place .

 .

Pro: Quite justly said . ( .

Soc: 19 And certainly the other species of pleasures , which we indeed said belong to The Soul Herself ,

 ,  ,

is entirely generated through Memory .



Pro: How (

Soc: In a reasonable way . And so before we even take-up what in the world Memory is , let us dare ask

 ,  '

in turn what perception is before seeking after Memory , if we intend to bring forth these matters in a clear way .

 , '.

Pro: What do you mean ? (

Soc: Assume on the one hand , that in each case of the affections concerned with our body , some are extinguished

d

within the body before they penetrate into the soul , thus leaving the soul unaffected , whereas on the other hand ,

 , 

other feelings penetrate through both the body and the soul , and produces a certain kind of ‘seismic tremor’

' 

through both conjointly and also in each one individually .

’.

Pro: Let it be assumed . ( .)

A note from Thomas Taylor's translation of The Philebus (P471 Prometheus Press):

"Memory , says Olympiodorus , is Triple : Irrational , rational , and intellectual .

Each of these likewise is Twofold : Phantastic , sensitive , dianoetic , doxastic , essential , Divine ."] 

1 Intellect

Intellectual

Essential-Divine

Revealed-TruthAPRIORISelf-Evident Truths

The Fullness - The Pleroma

The Preservation of

‘Seismic Tremors’/Feelings/Affections/Experiences/Perceptions

3 body Soul 2

irrational Rational

sensitive-fantastic opinionative-Dianoetic

Sub-conscious Conscious

Un-aware/Automatic Perceptible Awareness

imperceptible>emptiness>‘seismic tremors’>filling/pleasant> Perception

The Mind in the Living Being is The One that is Aware since the body is in itself oblivious/empty .

Soc: Take notice then , would we be absolutely correct if we said that those affections that do not pass

'  

through both , thus escape the notice of our soul , whereas we affirm that our soul does not fail to notice ’

those that penetrate through both ?

’

Pro: How could we not ? (

Soc: Now then , we should in no way misunderstand me as saying that this obliviousness has somehow

e 

generated the state of forgetfulness in the soul ; for forgetfulness is the departure/exit/loss of memory ,  ;   ,

but in the case of which I am now speaking , memory has not yet arisen . Surely then it would be absurd

’ 

to speak of losing something that neither exists nor has yet come into existence . Is this not so ?



Pro: Certainly , what then ? (

Soc: Now then , simply alternate the terms .

 .

Pro: How ? (

Soc: On the one hand , instead of saying that the soul ‘fails to notice’ , when it remains unaffected

, 

by the seismic tremors of the body which you now call forgetfulness , apply the term “imperceptible” .

, 

Pro: I understand . (E

Soc: Then on the other hand , you would say nothing out of the way by naming the one common experience

'

of the soul and the body and their common movement ‘perception’ , when they are moved by these occurrences .

.

Pro: You speak most truly .



Soc: Is it not the case then , that we already understand what we intend to say by the word perception .



Pro: Certainly what next ? (

Soc: So then Memory would be correctly called the Preservation of perception , of course , in my opinion .

b, 

Pro: Correctly so indeed . (

Soc: But do we not also say that Memory is different from Recollection ?

’  ;

Pro: Perhaps . ( .

Soc: Take notice then , is not the following the case ?



Pro: In what manner ? (

Soc: Whenever The Soul Itself In-itself , without the body , remembers in this way , by taking into account

’ 

how it was affected , by which longing/desire in company with the body ; then at that time we especially say



that it recollects .Is thisso ?



Pro: Quite so . (

Soc: And certainly ,when it has lost the memory of either a perception or of something it has learned

c , ' 

and again in turn it restores this , Itself In-itself , we also call everything such as these recollection .

. 

Pro: You speak correctly . (

Soc: Surely then , that for the sake of which we have been saying all these thingsis the following .

’

Pro: For the sake of what ?



Soc: In order that we may already grasp as completely and clearly as possible , the pleasure and at the same time

 

the desire of the soul separate from the body ; for the nature of both these is likely to be made clear to some degree



by showing the nature of these (memory and recollection) .



Pro : 20 Now then , O Socrates , let us discuss what follows by showing the nature of these .

 .

Soc: It is likely that we must indeed consider many points in our discussion about the origin of pleasure

d

and about the many forms of pleasure herself . But for now it looks like we must first take-up what in the world

 . '

desire is and how it arises



Pro: Let us now consider this then , for we have nothing to lose .



Soc: We shall then indeed lose one thing , O Protarchus , concerning which we are now at a loss .



For by finding the object of our search , we shall lose the perplexity concerning these very questions .

 , 

Pro: That is a fair counter ; but let us try to take-up these next points .

' 

Soc: Is it not the case then , that we just now said that hunger and thirst and all other such things e’

are certain desires ?



Pro: Very much so indeed ! (

Soc: What is the same element then ,that we have in view , in respect to which we call all these by one name ,

’

which are also at the same time quite different ;



Pro: By God , O Socrates , perhaps it is not to say , but nevertheless one must answer .

' ,  , ' 

Soc: Surely then , we should begin again from that same place .



Pro: From where then ? (

Soc: When we mention ‘thirst’ do we have some particular instance in mind ?



Pro: How could we not ? (' 

Soc: Whereas this is indeed to be empty ?

' 

Pro: Certainly , what then ? (

Soc: Take notice then , is the thirst a desire ?



Pro : Yes indeed , of the drink . ( ,  .)

Soc: Of the drink , or of being filled-full/replenished of the drink ?



Pro: In that case , of being filled-full , I suppose .



Soc: Then , whoever among us is empty , as it is likely , desires the opposite condition

 , 

from the one which they experience . For by being empty he longs to be filled .

 . .

Pro: That is most clear indeed . (.

Soc: What then ? From what source could the one who is empty perceive fullness for the first time ?

 

Could they either apprehend or remember that fullness which they have neither experienced

' ' ' 

at the present time nor have ever experienced in the past

’’

Pro: And how could they ? (

Soc: But certainly , we say that the one who desires , indeed desires something .

b ,  , ’ .

Pro: How could this not be the case ? (

Soc: Do they not indeed desire that which they feel , for they are thirsty . But this is the emptiness .



Thus they desire The Fullness .

 .

Pro: Yes ( .

Soc: Accordingly then , some part of them that thirsts can indeed in some way apprehend The Fullness .

' 

Pro: Necessarily ( .

Soc: Surely then on the one hand , the body is unable , for it is quite empty

 ,  .

Pro: Yes (

Soc: Accordingly then , it is clear that the only remaining possibility is that The Soul apprehends The Fullness ,

c

in its Memory , for what other possibilitycould yet remain thatcould apprehend The Fullness ?

' 

Pro: Nothing else but this . ( 

Soc: 21 Therefore , do we understand which consequences follow from this reasoning of ours ?

' 

Pro: What consequences ? (

Soc: According to our reasoning this very conclusion declares that the body does not generate desire .

 .

Pro: How (

Soc: Because desire reveals the intention of every living being is always to experience the opposite one to that .



Pro: And very much so . (

Soc: Thus the impulse which indeed draws towards the opposite of those experiences reveals how there exists

' H 

a Memory that is opposite to those conditions .

 .

Pro: By all means indeed (

Soc: Accordingly then Reason reveals that Memory is that which has led us towards the objects of desire

d

by showing that every single impulse and desire and The Leading Cause/Principle of every living-being



belong to the soul .



Pro: Most correct. ( 

Soc: Accordingly then , Reason proves that our body in no way experiences thirst or hunger or any such feeling .



Pro: Most True

 .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Proof of Reason~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Appeal to Life Experience~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Soc: Surely thenthere still remains the following aspect that we have to understand in connection with these



same conditionsFor it appears to me that Reason wishes to make clear to us , a species of life that exists in



these same conditions

 . 

Pro: 35eIn what conditions and about what kind of life are you speaking .

 ?

Soc: In the affections of being filled and being emptied and all such processes that exist in relation to



the preservation and the dissolution of living beings , and if one of us undergoes the latter one of these conditions,



then one suffers , but later-on one feels joy , according to the process of transformation .

 .

Pro: This is the case ( .

Soc: What then , of the condition that arises in the middle of these two ?

'   ;

Pro: What condition arises in the middle ? (

Soc: On the one hand , they suffer because of their condition , but on the other hand , they remember the pleasures

,  ,

which will eventuality bring the suffering to an end , but are not yet being-filled . What about that condition ?

' 

Shall we say that the same person is in the middle of those conditions or not ?



Pro: Let us say so then ( .

Soc: Which one , that they are wholly suffering or that they are wholly pleased ?

’ 

Pro: By Zeus , then they are suffering pain in a double way , for on the one hand , they suffer bodily pain ,

' , 

from their senses , and on the other hand , according to some expectation which the soul longs for .

 ,  .

Soc: How can you say that their pain is double , O Protarchus , or is it not the case that sometimes , one of us

 , '

who is empty rests in the clear hope of becoming filled , whereas at other times , they are quite hopeless ?

b

Pro: Most certainly indeed .(

Soc: Certainly then on the one hand , does it not appear to you that when they are hoping to be filled ,

 

they then feel joy in remembering , whereas on the other hand , they feel pain at the same time by being empty ?

 ,  

Pro: Necessarily (.

Soc: Accordingly then , at that time does not man and all other living creatures feel pain and joy at the same time?

’ , 

Pro: Quite likely (

SocWhat about the case then , of the person who is empty and is also hopeless of being filled ? Is it not then

’ ' 

that they would experience the double pain , which you were just observing , and was thus making you believe

c ’ 

that it was simply/solely/only double .

 .

Pro: Most true , O Socrates .



Soc: Now then , let us apply these feelings of ours to the following consideration .

 .

Pro: Which one ? (

Soc: Which of these two do we say is true or false , pain or pleasure ? Or do we say that some are true ,

 ,  ,

while on the other hand , some are not ?

' 

Pro: How then , O Socrates , can false pleasure or false pain exist ?

' ,  , 

Soc: How then , O Protarchus , can either true or false fears exist , or true or false expectations ,

 , ,

or true or false opinions



Is all pain-pleasure True ?

Is some pleasure/pain false ? Is some pleasure/pain true ?

Is all pain-pleasure false ?

pleasure/pain/opinion : Truth

: :

hope/fear/expectation : Truth

Pro: 36d For my part , I will agree that true and false opinions exist , but not as far as the others are concerned .

’  ’' .

Soc: What are you saying ? Surely you know that we risk awakening a discussion of no small importance .



Pro: What you say is true . (

Soc: Then let us see if this subject has any relation to the subjects that have preceded it , O son of that man ,

', '.

Pro: Perhaps it does indeed . (

Soc: Now then , we should dismiss all other subjects that are in any way either tedious or unimportant .



Pro: Rightly so . 

Soc: Tell me then , for I have indeed always been in a state of wonder about these same difficulties which

e , ’

we were just now proposing .



Pro: To what then are you referring ?



Soc: Are there not false pleasures , while others are true ?

' 

Pro: How could that be ? (

Soc: Then , as you say , no one , whether in dreams nor while awake nor while insane or while being deranged ,

 ,  , ’ , ' '  ,

ever thinks that they feel joy whenever they do not feel joy , then in turn , neither do they ever think that

'’; ’

they suffer pain , when they do not feel pain .

’

Pro: We have always assumed all this to be in this way , O Socrates .

'() ' ,  .

Soc: Take notice then , have you done so correctly ? Shall we then consider whether it is in this way or not ?

 ,  ’