Agenda for Change
Partnership Forum Sub Group
Notes of Meeting held at 9.45am, Friday, 14th March 2006
RCM Offices, Cathedral Road, Cardiff
Present:
Trade Union Representatives:
Richard Jones – RCN (Chair), Kim Sandford – SoR, Steve Sloan – Amicus, Paul Gage – GMB, Chris Jones – UNISON, Lorna Tinsley - RCM
NHS Management Representatives:
Judith Hardisty – HR Director – Cardiff & Vale NHS Trust, Suzanne Penny – HR Director – Powys LHB, Mary Richards, Payroll Manager – Pontypridd & Rhondda NHS Trust
Welsh Assembly Government:
Ian Stead – Acting Head of HR, NHS Wales, Pay Modernisation Unit: Kathryn Charles – Business Manager, Pat Hemsley and Debra Lomasney – Regional Leads
Apologies Received:
Peter Finch – CSP (Chair), Linda Passey – BOS, Pam Davies (T&GWU), Eddie Saville – SoCP, Tracy Myhill, HR Director – Gwent Healthcare NHS Trust, Denise Richards (WAG)
1.Apologies and Minutes of the last meeting
Minutes of the last meeting were agreed.
2.Update on current position:-
UK/4 Countries – DL reported back from the last meeting stating that England are reporting 97.1% assimilation with 99% job matched and passed to payroll. Scotland have reviewed A4C project plan and agreed new timescales; new plan outlines for 2006 and anticipates completion in August 2006 and all staff should be paid on A4C by October 2006 with all arrears expected to be paid by December 2006. At the end of February 87% in nursing, midwifery and ancillary have been job matched and job evaluations concluded, 3.6% have been assimilated and paid with no reviews to date. NI have now 60% of job matching completed, although some Trusts which have fallen below 75% threshold and have been asked to submitted a recovery plan (this covers all of them), 20% of staff have been passed to payroll with no assimilation. KSF position as follows – England have 85% post outlines, Scotland no data but will report at the next Executive and NI have made very little progress.
Backpay – Concerns have been raised from South West Peninsula with this being an area of issue for England due to non payment in three month time frame, with staff leads asking for staff to have payment on account. Julie Badon is now involved to investigate issues around delay although it is expected to delays may be attributed to the implementation of ESR. It has been requested that further data be collated on assimilation in England ie numbers on protection and reviews and on KSF the number of personal development reviews using post outlines. JH stated that very few foundation/teaching hospitals have met the targets and they are way down in relation to assimilation. DL stated that there was no agreement on pay awards (see later statement) but there is concern around request regarding Whitley uplift, England do not require an uplifting to whitley pay as they have predominately completed assimilating staff.
KSF workplan – Was submitted and agreed. 5.1 upgrade to e-KSF system had received positive feedback. An e-KSF and ESR joint statement is to be distributed shortly confirming the two systems will link.
Lots of discussions regarding public health trainees which is not resolved and further discussions will take place, mainly around the length of training course. Paper tabled on Executive priorities for next year. Clarification of T&Cs handbook should still come to the UK Exec.
National RRPs – DL reported that some areas had been challenged on equal pay scales, causing problems in NI. JH highlighted the potential issue regarding equal pay with DL stating that group will review national RRP position and it is on Executive agenda.
3.BRME
– IMS stated that this sub group was in the process of merging with NWWSG. Future monitoring would be covered by Regional Offices with the remained covered by NWWSG. Chris Plant had completed a discussion paper and will be discussed at next secretariat meeting regarding clearer expectations and role of NWWSG. SS confirmed that Regional Offices are to monitor and report back to NWWSG on quarterly basis. David Murphy and Brian Green are involved with NWWSG from Regional Office.
4.Job Evaluation
PH stated that as of 13th March 2006, in terms of predicted number of jobs needed to go through matching process, Wales were at 95% which included 7.3% which have not matched. People successfully matched stands at 80%. Currently at 35% assimilated and being paid on A4C terms. Review requests figure currently is 7.6% of those assimilated.. JE is now beginning to make progress with 54 full evaluations completed on CAJE covering 8 Trusts. Concerns regarding high no match rates centre around LHBs with a quarter of jobs not matching and Velindre and C&V which both have no match rates twice the average figure for Wales.
At UK level there will be monitoring of reviews and outcomes and we are currently looking at how we collect this data from trusts from next month. The JE subgroup will be reviewing the position around Trainees.. Currently, the JESG is monitoring AHPs particularly band 6/7 which may need further scrutiny. PH advised that no nursing profiles had been reviewed in detail although school nurses are on the lwork plan. A paper had been created to help with band 6/7 process for AHPs. The emphasis is now on getting Trusts moving on local evaluation – 95% for matching will probably waiver around that point as trusts “mop up” their processes. CAJE Superuser - Darryl Williams from PMU is the “super user” for Wales and will be advising trusts accordingly. JESG is planning an event to include refresher training for JE network re reviews and job evaluation. SS wanted to thank all those who have been committed to the monitoring process as in his view, Wales is doing the job properly in terms of a partnership effort to ensure matching results are consistent across Wales. SS also raised concern regarding staff being moved out of JE teams into ESR for example : we need to keep the talent in the process and not lose their experience - SS asked HRDs to note this. JH stated that ESR is now quite a problem in relation to A4C – we need to have a look at the timescales of both as issues of how far we can go with process this year and also resource sharing across Trusts with a long term plan for the next 12 months.
Assimilation – IMS raised concerns regarding theNE payroll as they have hardly progressed. Ambulance have not started assimilation and only 15% have been processed in Conwy & Denbighshire. ESR is only part of the issue.. IMS has spoken to Richard Thomson and Mark Sykes regarding progress.
5.Terms & Conditions
KS updated the meeting and advised that Chris’ loss to the sub group has caused a major problem as there are so many ongoing papers and processes which need to be followed up with no one to take this forward. KS advised that a list had been circulated to 4 Counties for guidance although no feedback was available to date. KC to circulate to T&CSG.
Current work/papers in progress are: KSF/Career progression;, sleep ins Bank Holiday paper. Awaiting three countries agreement on supervisors of Midwives. Revised RRP protocol – there is now no focus to take forward. KS also stated that it would be very time consuming doing query logs and this will be a problem. Clearer interpretation is needed regarding Whitley Uplift and KS asked IMS to think about how this gets covered. SP suggested a possible secondment into PMU to cover this with timing becoming an issue as there could be a delay in queries coming back. IMS to take forward.
6.Knowledge & Skills Framework
DL reported that good progress had been made with 50% of post outlines in draft with a big increase over last month and groups getting started with consistency checking. Further advanced training on e-KSF for e-ksf administrators had taken place, which included a run through on the new feature available on the recent upgrade to 5.1. The links between e-KSF and ESR had been clarified. Very positive feedback from KSFSGs who can use the tool to share outlines. We are at last progressing with 2.5% approved. DL had received additional requests to speak at conferences and presentations to groups as JE is now embedded, KSF is enjoying a greater focus of attention.
7.Payroll
MR advised that most trusts were at the ‘devil in detail’ stage and were required to make decisions quickly as assimilation process progresses, which can be problematical. Continued pressure on payroll staff is unprecedented with experienced staff under unrelenting intense pressure to take this forward. SP endorses this with Powys putting in exceptional payments. JH advised that in June/July this year all payroll staff will be trained on ESR and in her trust will not touch A4C. the group discussed problems regarding backpay –as the requirement to pay within 3 months causes delay in assimilation. If agreement could be reached to delay payment of back pay, they can assimilate more staff before ESR comes in. September onwards. JH suggested another project plan for e-KSF and ESR taking this forward. IMS reported some good news in that PDQ had been sorted out, however MR stated this is irrelevant in this process now. SS asked WAG for clarity regarding tax credits at year ends and interpretation from Inland Revenue regarding process was required. IMS stated he would follow through tax credits situation. IMS to take forward to ensure consistent advice. The meeting also agreed that Trusts should request trusts to submit revised timescales of implementing A4C to reflect ESR. This data would be collected via future TSRs.
8.Pay 2006
IMS confirmed that an announcement was due to be made on Thursday but the issue will be that if there is an announcement this week re PRB this process is then to be discussed at Pay Negotiating Council. JH debate around uplift of Whitley re staff who have not been assimilated will lose out as there is no uplift. SS stated that it is not acceptable for staff to wait for two years for backpay. MJ stated that payroll can’t manually reproduce pay scales to cover old Whitley scales this will cause major problems. The meeting agreed that staff reps to get back to leaders to feed in request for Whitley uplift figures at Exec. All to put pressure on their leaders and PFSG to get 3 Countries guidance.
Staff Side may write to Minister to raise issue and IMS to bring up a weekly Minister meeting (next Monday). Mary to draft a note to help take this forward.
Possibly if England isn’t using Whitley, could McKessons I-Soft be approached to upgrade the system and take this forward. IMS to speak to Sue Jones (ESR) to take this forward and suggest the process of Scotland, NI and Wales having the system upgraded immediately.
Actions - Staff reps to raise at Staff Council, Mary to draft note for lobbying to Minister, IMS to raise at Minister meeting and make contact with I-Soft via Sue Jones. Joint letter from PFSG to Minister regarding risk of non Whitley upgrade. IMS to contact other 2 Countries to debate.
9.Draft 5 – Career/Pay Progression
Draft 4 and draft 5 circulated. LT stated that RCM are deeply unhappy with paper stating that an agreement hadalready been presented to Peter Smith and management side. Impasse paper from CP is quite misleading asExecutive have already commented that they are unhappy with the wording. Concerns raised were around Preceptorship and who this applies to and the progression from band 5 to band 6. LT to forward Peter Smith document to IMS for information as this had not been received. PH stated that there was no intention to leave out Midwives from the process. PH confirmed that the group be reconvened to look at documents – Peter Smith (NHS Employers) document to also be circulated by Lorna to A4C Project Board and PFSG.
IMS stated that PFSG needs to ratify the paper formally and we can’t do this as we have not seen the Peter Smith document. IMS to speak to Peter Smith for update on band 5/6 pay progression.
Preceptorship – JH asked the Sub Group to look further at this and report back to next meeting as there was concern around cost and definition of preceptorship. DL are we sure it applies to all staff or not – where is it not happening? T&Cs agreement to say that it does apply to all staff. Needs to be clarified that we are all doing the same – sub group to discuss and a further draft. KS this has been already agreed by T&CSG in Q&As – need to resend this. Meeting to reconvene regarding preceptorship and Band 5/6. T&C database to be reviewed to confirm the FAQ covered.
10.Unison response to JESG paper (AHP Specialist)
The meeting discussed the e-mail from Dave Galligan of Unison with the issue being covered by JESG regarding concerns over paper created. PH to report back to PFSG. JH stated wanted to register real unhappiness as the statement was based on real unease amongst occupational therapists, for unison to make a submission to a partnership document using quotes which were inaccurate is not acceptable. PH to report back to next meeting.
11.Future of PMU
IMS advised that PMU has been extended to reflect the development of the project. PH will continue to the end of the year with DL to October. IMS is in discussions regarding Darryl possibly transferring to WDeC and buying time back for monitoring purposes. KC would be with the project to August and will continue in WAG from then onwards. The new HR Department structure was still being determined due to the impact on department as transfers into Agency take place. One of the potential positions would be for a senior HR person who could also pick up the management of the PMU. PMU would be moving at the end of March to WAG. KC to circulate new e-mail, phones and addresses. SS advised that he would speak to IMS regarding process of timelines etc and leaving posts etc. IMS confirmed that PFSG to continue for some time.
12.AOB
SS confirmed that he would write to IMS to discuss ‘building trade’ workers.
13.Date and time of next meeting
11th April 2006 – 9.45am – 11.45am(postponed due to Project Board on 6th April 2006)
9th May 2006 – 9.45am – 11.45am
RCM Offices, Cathedral Road, Cardiff