Dialogue of Socrates and Machiavelli

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George Woo

Mr. Reichert

IBS Philosophy

23 November 1996

Word Count: 1216

Dialogue of Socrates and Machiavelli

Machiavelli: It’s atrocious how one would believe in such nonsense. The unexamined life is worth living for.

Socrates: How is that true?

Machiavelli: For a prince to maintain power, it is necessary for his servants to not know of what lies ahead of them. For to have subjects, the prince must have them beneath him. Examined lives will take power away from the prince for the people will question everything.

Socrates: Is not questioning the only means to gain answers? You said so yourself that a prince must question the environment in his homeland in order to become a good strategos. In your view, is this not what makes a good prince different from a bad one. Is this not more efficient?

Machiavelli: Questioning from the prince is efficient, but not from the people.

Socrates: What of the people? You claim that the people to be subjects or rather automatons instead. The unexamined lives of men are not worth living, and princes, kings, and all rulers inclusive.

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Machiavelli: How can such people live with order when they can limit the power from their prince, or ruler? Examining their lives will bring upon dissent from the people to their prince, and this is certainly not efficient. What type of rule do you expect to manage in this situation?

Socrates: A democracy would serve the citizens. They will be able to examine their lives, and make decisions of wisdom rather than a decision of numbers. Citizens will be able to express their voices, and have a better chance at receiving justice when offenses are involved.

Machiavelli: DEMOCRACY! Don’t make me laugh! A democracy is the least efficient of governments. People must vote to make decisions, but under what circumstances. What if a time arrives where the citizens are pressed for a decision with time? Shall they put it to a vote and waste their precious time or shall they act under the rule of one leaders who can take them through their conflict? One can easily see that this voting is too slow, and is merely for entertainment and satisfaction for the people. A government that incorporates a pseudo voting for a decision is truly clever. Under the rule of a prince, this will eliminate some concern with the commoners. This is the truly efficient way.

Socrates: When you speak of efficiency, whom do you speak for? Do you think of the people or the prince? How about the nation? One must understand the root of this efficiency before one argues about it. For you, efficiency is merely for the whim of the prince. That is all. The nation can suffer, the people can live in terror, and the prince will live in wealth and luxury. Unlike the heroic belief of one suffering for the whole, here it is

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the whole suffering for the life of one. Is this not selfish? The only individual who benefits is the prince. If the nation is in shambles, the people live in poverty, and only one person is benefiting from all this, then this cannot be efficient.

Machiavelli: The people will not suffer so greatly as you have said for they will always live without indecision for one will be made by the prince. He will rule the people with all measures taken to guarantee his rule, and this is efficient. There is no waiting period for a voting to take place. There exists no bureaucracy, and this is certainly more efficient. The prince is the one who’ll need knowledge, and with this he shall rule efficiently. Is this not similar to your philosopher kings?

Socrates: Certainly not! The philosopher kings do not bring upon harm on the people. They will not take away the lives of the people for their actions and decisions are based upon the Good. The Good cannot bring harm upon the people, or anything by definition. Cities will be modeled after this Form, and this cannot be bad. This is truly more efficient for the cities based upon the Form of the Good are by nature good. Good deserves good, and evil deserves evil. If the cities are good, then only good can be done unto them. In your cities, princes are so occupied with questioning things solely related to their sustaining power that they lose sight of their main purpose in ruling. Are not the lives of the princes always involved with keeping their power? How can a prince focus on maintaining their cities when their primary thought is involved with their loss of power? One can reason that the princes will not care for their people, but would care of themselves only.

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Machiavelli: Surely, one must understand that if a prince is to be corrupted or perverted by power, he is being inefficient. The prince must understand that further upsetting the people will bring upon evil on him. The people will despise him, and he will risk a revolt which is very inefficient. Therefore, one can reason that the prince needs to satisfy the people’s needs, but not to spoil them dearly. Men are fickle and selfish by nature.

Socrates: That’s certainly ridiculous! If men were fickle and selfish by nature, then all is in vain when man has established government. Establishing society is in vain, and so is establishing morals. Men must be by nature good, and it is only greed that turns their heads towards the darkness of evil. How can you talk of men being evil by nature when one is given the example of patriots, heroes, and martyrs? If the life is the only thing that keeps men in power, why were these men willing to give up theirs? Was it power that drove them to make the ultimate sacrifice? Certainly, you make an argument based upon men being selfish and the princes need to control such men by maintaining power, but you do not account for the good. You only see the evil and wrong-doings of men instead of the achievements of men. What of philosophy? Philosophy cannot surely be efficient, yet it has done so much to improve the minds of the people. Philosophy has established knowledge on reasoning, to which you have overlooked as methodical thinking. Surely, you are misled to believe the men are avaricious and should be ruled by an efficient prince. If men are to be truly ruled efficiently, they must rule with philosophy and logical reasoning instead of efficiency in maintaining power. Power is not the issue of controlling the people for it is temporal in minds of men when death falls upon the prince. The issue of efficiency involves the people being able to live in order for a longer period, and only

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philosophy can bring that upon the people. You are mistaken claiming that your view of efficiency is better than my view of morality. People makes mistakes, people can live good lives or bad lives, but surely you are wrong in wildly claiming that all men are evil. It is the cause of your view of great pessimism that has led astray your logical thinking into the realm of absurdity of the ends justifying the means. The princes must rule with the Good instead with your pessimistic views in order to achieve the truly efficient life where everyone is happy.