MONDAY, NOVEMBER 9th, 1998
Upon commencing at 10:07 a.m.
Accused present
DENIS MARCEL GAUDREAULT, previously sworn
THE REGISTRAR: Counsel satisfied that all members of the jury are present?
MR. COOPER: Content.
MR. McKECHNIE: Content.
MS. MULLIGAN: Yes. Thank you.
MR. COOPER: Thank you, Your Honour. We didn't finish the English conversation at tab 10 tab 7 of the materials. In order to get the context, Your Honour, it's not very long and it's all in English, so I'm going to start at the beginning and then I'll stop where we left but I don't anticipate any interruptions from any-body, there won't be any questions or answers.
THE COURT: All right.
--- Audiotape played (French)
MR. COOPER: It appears, Your Honour, that I made a slight error but let me correct myself. I thought I was going to right back to zero, I'm not, but I do have a reference point here.
It's been brought to my attention that the Interpreter hasn't been sworn in for this hearing, Your Honour, so perhaps we could attend to that as well.
THE COURT: We'll do that while you're performing other duties.
(Monique Carrière, Official Interpreter, sworn, was made avail-
able for the witness)
MR. COOPER: Thank you, Your Honour. Once again I'm going to attempt to start the conversation at the English part, which is at tab 7, or maybe a little bit left over from the previous conversation but it shouldn't be very much.
--- Audiotape played
Telephone Operator: This is a call from Denis, will you accept the charge?
Sylvie: Yes I will.
Denis: Okay. Shoot.
Sylvie: Okay. Attends une minute, je vais
te les passer. Attends une minute, ils vont embarquer sur le téléphone, okay?
Denis: Oui.
Heather? Hi. Denis?
Denis: Yeah, hi. How can I help you people?
Heather: Yeah, I think you can.
Denis: Okay.
Heather: On the other line is Rick Riddell is also here, right?
Denis: Okay.
Heather: So listen can we meet with you and discuss ...
Denis: Well, see, to meet with me right now is it's kind of hard for me to believe because if I even go back to the city I've fucking had it. That's why I'm all the way down here. I got to keep moving all the time.
Heather: M'hmmhmm.
Rick: Where are you, Denis?
Denis: Right now I'm in Vancouver but I don't want nobody to know this that's why I'm here.
Rick: Well why don't you leave the city and go out into one of the little villages or something.
Denis: Yeah, but, see, I don't want to be picked up and arrested and brought there as a witness. I don't want that shit.
Heather: No.
Rick: Well we're not going to arrest you for nothing.
Denis: Well, you said B.C. wants me for something.
Rick: Yeah, but we've got no authority in B.C.
Denis: Okay. Well, what does B.C. want me for anyhow that I've .....
Rick: Break and enter.
Denis: That's it?
Rick: Yeah.
Denis: That's the only thing on your computer.
Rick: In B.C., yeah.
Denis: Fuck, I never did anything.
Rick: Well, it's a case, it's a case from June of '89.
Denis: Oh no, the wrong guy. Okay, no problem. Where would you like to meet me?
Rick: Wherever you want.
Denis: Okay, you can meet me, why don't we make it Tuesday. Can you come over here?
Rick: We're going to fly out. It won't be me, it'll it's gonna be the Inspector and Heather.
Denis: You want information to lead to something else, right?
Rick: That's right.
Denis: Okay. That's the Cumberland affair.
Rick: That's right.
Denis: Okay. Well I could talk to youse whenever youse come down I guess.
Heather: Okay. Well how are we going to get in touch with you then?
Denis: Well it's easy, just come down to Victoria. Just tell me when you want to come down, I'll take the ferry across from Vancouver to Victoria and I'll meet you on the island. It's only 12 bucks.
Heather: Okay.
Denis: But I won't meet you on the mainland that's .....
Heather: Okay.
Rick: Well, give us a phone number when we get to Vancouver where we can phone ya.
Denis: There is no phone numbers.
Rick: No?
Denis: I can't give no phone numbers. I have none.
Heather: Is there a pay is there a pay phone or anything that we can call you at a certain time
on Monday and let you know when we're going to be there and ...?
Denis: I'm just looking for the phone here. Hey, nobody is gonna come and arrest me, right?
Rick: No.
Heather: No.
Denis: Okay. 389-
Heather: Uh huh.
Denis: 9811, that's a pay phone right now.
Heather: Okay.
Denis: And the other one is 3899738.
Heather: Okay. Those are both pay phones?
Denis: They're both pay phones side by side, so if one is busy call the other one.
Rick: Okay. Well ...
Denis: Okay, we'll make it 10:00 o'clock Tuesday morning.
Rick: And phone you at that number?
Denis: Yeah. Or if you want you could meet me there's place called in Victoria I could meet you there at 10:00 o'clock in the morning, it's a nice open area it's called the Oceanside Gift Shop.
Heather: Oceanside Gift Shop.
Denis: Gift Shop.
Rick: That sounds better.
Heather: Okay.
Denis: Okay. That's right about, like that's like in the harbour, you see the sea, undersea here.
Heather: Okay.
Denis: And there's that's where they have the ferry for the States.
Heather: Okay.
Denis: And they have also the hydroplanes on one side.
Heather: Okay. All right, so we'll meet there on Tuesday at 10:00 o'clock in the morning.
Denis: But listen to me, anybody knows that youse are coming down to see me they'll try to beat youse to it.
Rick: No, there's nobody knows.
Heather: But but ...
Denis: Well I'm just telling you that and I ain't joking around when I'm telling you that.
Heather: No, we're being ...
Denis: Like these people youse want to know about they're not no fucking candy asses.
Rick: No, no, we know that.
Denis: 'Cause the only reason why I did what I did is because they were gonna make a sample out of me like the Cumberland site.
Rick: That's right. We believe that.
Denis: That's exactly the way it was told to me at my house. They said if I'd had that much time and if I didn't and it didn't it came from the fucking straight up, from the big guy, they call him the millionaire.
Rick: Is his name Michel?
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah.
Denis: He's got small black glasses.
Heather: Yeah.
Denis: He drives a 4x4, he's got some Porsches.
Rick: That's right.
Heather: Yeah.
Denis: His wife just left him not too long ago.
Rick: Michel Vanasse.
Denis: That's right.
Rick: Yeah.
Denis: That's exactly who we're talking about.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: And like I said I ain't fucking joking, these fucking people are fucking even plugged in with the RCMP when they want some information, I've seen it done before.
Rick: Well .....
Denis: And I don't want to fucking, I don't even want to jeopardize anything I got going now.
Rick: All right.
Denis: Okay, so I'll meet youse here Tuesday morning at 10:00 o'clock I'll be here.
Heather: Okay.
Rick: That's at that gift shop.
Denis: Yeah, Oceanside Gift Shop.
Heather: Okay.
Rick: Victoria, British Columbia.
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: Victoria, British Columbia.
Heather: Okay. That sounds good.
Rick: Do you know a guy by ...
Denis: You come down, I'm not gonna put you on, you just ask me what you want to know, I'll give you some names, some addresses and that and you'll be able to take it from there.
Heather: Okay. Well that sounds fair.
Denis: Okay?
Rick: Do you know about that murder?
Denis: Yes I do. I knew it just before it even happened.
Rick: You knew who was going to do it?
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: Because they told me that I should read the paper tomorrow if I don't come up with the money, what's gonna happen tonight is gonna happen to me within a week. The next day he came over and chucked the paper in my face. He said that's what happens, and that came from Michel, he said from now on he said in a week if I don't have my money you're gonna get exactly what they got but with you we'll fuck- ing doing it different.
Rick: Okay. Now, do you know who was there doing this?
Denis: Yes I do.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: I even know what they did with the little toy afterwards too.
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF (continued) BY MR. COOPER:
Q. Okay, Mr. Gaudreault, on Friday we got just a little bit further than this and as you may recall from Friday Officer Riddell is about to tell you about this Harkness fellow and I'll resume the tape in just a moment, but what I'd like to ask you now, sir, is to listen to see if you mentioned anything more about the case from this point onward during the course of this tape, I'll ask you that question at the end of the tape, okay?
A. Yeah.
--- Audiotape playing
Rick: Okay. There's a guy who left Ottawa ...
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: ... on Sunday.
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: And he was checked at the Vancouver air- port.
Denis: What's his name?
Rick: Harkness.
Denis: Harkness?
Rick: Yeah.
Denis: Okay.
Rick: Do you know him?
Denis: No.
Rick: Well he's associated to Stewart.
Denis: Yeah?
Rick: Okay?
Denis: Okay.
Rick: So it's too bad you don't know him because that's who you could look for if you're, you know, that's who went out there.
Denis: And is he really out there?
Rick: He went out with $ 20,000. and a change of clothes. He was seen talking to two guys in the airport cafeteria that looked like biker types.
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah. Now did he pay them each 10 grand or did he, you know?
Denis: Yeah he did.
Rick: We don't know, you know?
Denis: Because he knew I knew some information that's why now he's pushing it harder.
Rick: Okay. So ...
Denis: He's got me in a corner.
MR. COOPER:
Q. I'm stopping it there, Mr. Gaudreault, this is roughly where we stopped the last time, I can't tell by the counter precisely where it was but ..... What did you mean, sir, "he's got me in a corner"?
A. Pardon?
Q. You've just finished saying "because I knew some information that's why he's pushing it harder". Riddell says "Okay. So ..." and then you said "He's got me in a corner". Who are you talking about first of all?
A. "He's got me in a corner"?
Q. Yes.
A. Rob Stewart.
Q. And what do you mean by "in a corner"?
A. Well he's looking for me, so now he's starting to send people looking for me.
Q. I'll continue, sir.
--- Audiotape playing
Rick: So you'll be there Tuesday morning eh?
Denis: There's no way I could get to see the pictures of these two, eh?
Rick: We're going to try to get them.
Denis: Because I need to fucking see it soon because people are checking in exactly where I'm checking in.
Rick: Well why don't you just hold up for a few days and meet those guys there Tuesday morning.
Denis: Yeah.
Rick: We're gonna, we're gonna try to help ya.
Denis: Okay.
Rick: Okay?
Denis: Just as long as you just follow these guys there'll be no problem.
Rick: And we can promise you we're not going to arrest you.
Denis: No?
Rick: Yeah.
Denis: Well are you gonna keep a close tab on those two, though, eh?
Rick: Yeah, well we're trying to get their pictures now.
Denis: Yeah, well do you know exactly where they are now?
Rick: No.
Denis: Is somebody watching them?
Rick: Well they were under surveillance on Sunday, so .....
Denis: Well I expect you make damn sure that they're still under surveillance right now.
MR. COOPER:
Q. Mr. Gaudreault, just a few sentences ago you've asked "Well are you gonna keep a close tab on those two, eh?", who are you referring to as "those two"?
A. I'm referring to the guy that John Harkness was seen talking to at the airport.
Q. Continue.
--- Audiotape playing
Rick: Okay. Well I mean ...
Denis: 'Cause if they get me, fuck.
Rick: I don't think they're gonna get ya. I don't think they have any idea where they are.
Denis: Oh they will, with 20 grand they will.
Rick: Anyway ...
Denis: So ...
Rick: ... you know how to look after yourself.
Denis: Oh I do. I'll see youse Tuesday.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: Thanks a lot.
Rick: Oh, Heather, anything you want to ask him?
Heather: No. Sylvie wants to talk to him before he goes.
Rick: Okay.
Denis: Can you describe me those two people or ...
Rick: Well Heather might be able to.
Heather: Well Harkness ...
Denis: Yeah.
Heather: ... has long red hair ...
Denis: Okay.
Heather: ... and a beard. He's about I'd say, I don't know, about 25 years old.
Denis: Okay.
Heather: And he dresses and acts like a biker.
Denis: Okay.
Heather: And that's that's about all that I know about him.
Denis: That's no problem, fuck don't worry about that if he's only 25.
Heather: Yeah, he'd be about that.
Denis: What if he comes after me, just pack him in for youse people or what?
Heather: The, I don't know about the two guys he met in the airport though, I have no idea what they look like.
Denis: Okay.
MR. COOPER:
Q. Mr. Gaudreault, just a moment ago you said on the tape "What if he comes after me, just pack him in for youse people or what?"
A. That's an expression.
Q. And what did you mean by that expression, sir?
A. Eh? Well, fucking beat him, hold him for them or - but knowing myself I'd probably run in the opposite direction.
Q. We'll continue.
--- Audiotape playing
Heather: But we'll see what we can do in trying to track down who these guys are.
Denis: Okay.
Heather: Okay?
Denis: Okay. Thanks a lot.
Heather: So I'll see you on Tuesday. We got to bring the big boss along, eh?
Denis: No problem. As long as there's no problem. I'll sit down with youse and we'll talk and then we'll take it from there.
Heather: Yeah, well he's the one that can make the deals with you and offer you the kind of protection, eh?, that's why he's going out.
Denis: Okay, well I'll talk to him when I see him.
Heather: Okay. Good enough. Here's Sylvie.
Denis: Okay.
Heather: Bye bye.
Denis: Bye.
MR. COOPER: Now at this point, Your Honour, it changes back to French with Sylvie and this is where I'll surrender the controls.
--- Audiotape played
THE INTERPRETER:
Sylvie: Denis?
Denis: Yeah.
Sylvie: You're gonna be there for sure, huh?
Denis: Yeah because now there are two people who've left town with 20,000 on them.
Sylvie: Yeah.
Denis: Yeah, because they know that I'm gonna talk.
Sylvie: No, no, they left before all of that happened. They left Sunday.
Denis: Sunday? When was that?
Sylvie: They left he left Sunday, eh? Sunday night. Saturday Rob made those threats to Rhonda.
Denis: Yeah?
Sylvie: Yeah, and after that well that's when he said that Sunday that he hadn't left the motel because we went to work on Monday morning ...
Denis: Yeah.
Sylvie: ... because his truck and the cars they were covered with snow because it had snowed, okay?
Denis: Okay.
Sylvie: Yeah, and they hadn't moved anything so that means that there was a big meeting and he sent some guys to Vancouver so don't go in public too much, just stay where you are ...
Denis: Yeah.
Sylvie: ... and meet them.
Denis: Okay.
Sylvie: But I'm telling you right now ...
Denis: Yeah?
Sylvie: ... you remember Savage?
Denis: Yeah.
Sylvie: You trusted him?
Denis: Yeah.
Sylvie: They're even better.
Denis: Okay.
Sylvie: And take my word for it.
Denis: Okay. Well I'm gonna meet them Tuesday anyway, it's just it's just that I want to know who they are.
Sylvie: What?
Denis: Because you see people they come they come next to us and you have to be careful.
Sylvie: Well don't go anywhere, just stay where you are.
Denis: Okay.
Sylvie: And now they're gonna see you Tuesday morning. I'm telling you eh ...
Denis: And tell them that just just for their own security ...
Sylvie: Okay.
Denis: ... that they should that they should if they can that they should follow them follow them because if they hit me before the others talk to me there'll never be anything and I'm gonna continue to walk.
THE WITNESS: No, they'll continue to walk.
THE INTERPRETER: "pi la j'ma continuer à marcher."
THE WITNESS: Non, ils vont continuer à marcher.
MR. COOPER: Okay. Hold your fire for a minute. Would you translate whatever Mr. Gaudreault has said as well?
THE INTERPRETER: "No, they're gonna continue to walk." "I'm gonna continue to walk." The Interpreter heard "I'm gonna continue to walk." Mr. Gaudreault said "They're gonna continue to walk." We should listen to it again.