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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

O/NH-773110

THEHONOURABLEM.WHITEAO,Commissioner

MRM.GOODA,Commissioner

INTHEMATTEROFAROYALCOMMISSIONINTO THECHILDPROTECTIONANDYOUTHDETENTION SYSTEMSOFTHENORTHERNTERRITORY

EXTRACTOFTRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS DARWIN

10.08AM,TUESDAY,9 MAY2017

MRP.J.CALLAGHANSCappearswithMRP.MORRISSEYSC,MR T.McAVOYSC,MRB.DIGHTON,MSV.BOSNJAK,MRT. GOODWINandMSS.McGEEasCounselAssisting

.ROYALCOMMISSION9.5.17P-1

©CommonwealthofAustralia

MRL.CROWLEYappearsforAY

EXTRACTOFTRANSCRIPTOF PROCEEDINGS[10.08am]

5

MRMcAVOY: GoodmorningCommissioners.Weareherethismorninginclosed courtwiththevulnerablewitness,AY.Heisinthewitnessbox,andIthinkwe’re readytoproceed.

10COMMISSIONERWHITE: Readyto go.Yes,thankyou. Ifyouwouldkindly standup.Wouldyourefertohimbyhisnamein thisclosedhearing.

MRMcAVOY: Iunderstandthatheishappytobereferredtobyhisfirstname.

15MRCROWLEY: Yes.Commissioners,mayIannouncemyappearance.Crowley ismyname,initialL,of counsel.IappearonbehalfofAY.Heishappytohavehis namereferredtoasAYinproceedings.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Sohisordinaryname?

20

MRCROWLEY: Yes.No,AY.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Hewishestobereferredto asAY.Verywell,thank you.

25

<AY,AFFIRMED[10.11am]

30COMMISSIONERWHITE: Now,MrMcAvoy,doesitsuit youto askAY questionsfromwhereyouarestandingordoyouwanttomovefurtherdowntothe endofthepodium?

MRMcAVOY: I’mcomfortablewhereIam,butiftheneedarisesImightseek

35leavetomovecloser.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Thankyou.

40EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEFBYMRMcAVOY[10.11am]

MRMcAVOY: Now,AY–Iwillbecalling youAYwhen I’m askingyou questions.Youunderstandthat? Insteadofyourname.Youarepresently

45?---Yes.

Andyou’vemadeastatementforthisRoyalCommission?---Yes.

.ROYALCOMMISSION9.5.17 / P-2 / AYXN
©CommonwealthofAustralia / MRMcAVOY

If thewitnesscouldbeshownthestatementplease.Canyouhavealookat that document.Doyourecognisethatdocument?---Yes.

Andonthelastpage, youseeparagraph100intherecommendationsthere,you

5recognisethat asyourstatement?---Yes.

Now,Iunderstandthatthestatementistrue–thatyouwillsaythatthestatementis trueandcorrectbutthattherearesomecorrectionsyouwouldliketomake,having readthroughyourstatementrecently?---Yes.

10

Soatparagraph44,whereitsaysinparagraph44, “Oneofthemhadapoleinhis hand.”Iunderstandthatyouwantthatreplacedwith,“Ihadapoleinmy

hand”?---Yes.

15Andthenatparagraph42,youwillseetherethatthere’ssomeblacked-outnamesin paragraph42,butthepeople–thepersonthat’sreferredtoinyourstatement,Ican saytherewasapersonreferredtointhestatementwiththename andthat shouldbe ;isthatcorrect?---Yes.

20Andthesameatparagraph59.Andthere’sapersoninthat–theoriginalversionof thestatementwithouttheblackedoutparts,isreferredtoitis andthatshould be ?---Yes.

Andthenatparagraph93,inthethirdline,thefirstwordinthethirdlineis“fell”and

25Iunderstandthatshouldbe“feel”?---Yes.

Soreplacefellwithfeel?---Yep.

Thankyou.They’reallthecorrectionsthatyouareawareof?---Yes.

30

Sowiththosecorrections,you’resatisfiedthatyourstatementistrueand correctto thebestofyourknowledge?---Yes.

Sorry.Therewasone furthermatterIneedtoattendtobeforetendering,

35Commissioner.Paragraph74A,paragraph74Ain yourstatement,

Youdon’tnowrely

onthatline,74A.Youwantthatexcluded;isthatright?---Yes.

Sowithallofthosechanges,you’rehappythatthestatementistrueand correct,to

40thebestofyourknowledge?---Yep.

Thankyou.Commissioners,Itenderthestatementsubjecttothoseamendments.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Exhibit341,asamended.

45

EXHIBIT#341STATEMENTOFAY

MRMcAVOY: Ialsotender,atthispoint,theresponsivetenderbundlewith respecttoAY.However,it’ssubjecttoaproposalfornon-publicationdirections withrespecttocertaintabs,Commissioners,andIwillreadthosetabsout now.

5COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thankyou.

MRMcAVOY: Tabs1 to4,9to16andtab20.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Soit’stenderedwiththeothersbeingopentender?

10Yes,thank you.

MRMcAVOY: Subjecttotheusualredactions,Commissioner.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Yes.Havetheyoccurred,MrMcAvoy?

15

MRMcAVOY: Ican’tanswerthat.No,Idon’tthinkso.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Sotheywon’tgoontothewebsiteuntiltheredactions arecompleted.

20

MRMcAVOY: Subjecttotheredactionshavingbeencompleted,Commissioner.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thankyou.Well,theresponsivetenderbundleis exhibit342,tabs1to4,9to16and20are confidential,anditwillbeputonthehub

25afterthe redactionshaveoccurred.

EXHIBIT#342RESPONSIVETENDERBUNDLE

30

MRMcAVOY: TherearetwofurthertendersthatIwillattendtonow.They’re bothbedrecordswhichhavebeenredactedandIcangive youtheiridentification numbers.It’sDCS.0001.5017.0001.ThesecondisDCS.0001.5017.0008.

35COMMISSIONERWHITE:Aretheybeingtenderedasoneexhibitortwoseparate exhibits?

MRMcAVOY: Iamin yourhands,Commissioners.They’rebothbed records.

40COMMISSIONERWHITE: RelatingtoAY?

MRMcAVOY: Yes.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Yes.Ithinktheycanbeone exhibitthen.Exhibit

45343.

EXHffiiT#343BEDRECORDSRELATINGTOAY

MRMcAVOY: Therearesomefurtherdocumentstobetendered,whichI

5foreshadow.I willattendtothetenderofthosedocuments,theresponsive statements,aftertheevidenceofthiswitness.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Yes,certainly.

10MRMcAVOY: SimplysothatIcanbecei1ainthattheyhaven'tothe1wisebeen tendered,andthechecks arebeingmade,Commissioner.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Yes.

15MRMcAVOY: Now,I'vegotsomequestionsforyou,andI wouldlikeyouto speakasloudlyasyoucanand,ofcourse,youranswersareforthebenefitsofthe Commissioners.Howoldareyounow?·--·

And

20

COMMISSIONERWHITE: CanIjustsuggestfor-couldyoujustmoveyourchair

alongalittlebit. Thankyou. Wewerejustbeing-wewerejustbeingblockedby

thecomputerscreen. Canyouseehimclearly?

25COMMISSIONERGOODA: Yes.

COMMISSIONERWHITE:Thankssomuch.

MRMcAVOY: Andwhenwefirststarted,yousaidthatyou

30---Yep.

Andit'sconectthatyou'vebeeninandoutofcustodysinceyouwereyears old?---Yes.

35CanyoujusttelltheCommissionersalittlebitaboutyourself,whereyouwerebomandgrewupandwhatthatwaslikeforyou?---I wasbomin and mostlygrewuparoundDruwinbut-andthe. yes. And movedarmmdabittoo,whenIwaslittle. AndjustsinceI was that'swhen

Istrutedgoingtojail.

40

Right. Howlong-howoldwereyouwhenyoumovedtoDruwin?---Iwouldhave

beenabout-

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Didyougetintoagroupthatweredoingbad

45things?---Yeah. I'm---

Isthathowit allstarted?---Yes.Ihungaroundoldercousinsandthat.Iwantedto hangaroundtheboysbecauseI got ,yeah.Iwasthe

.

Werethey?---.

.That’sprettyunderstandable?---Yeah.

MRMcAVOY: Andwhenyoufirststartedgettingintotroublewiththepolice,

10whatsortofthingswereyou gettingintroublefor?---Well,breakingandenter,and stealingcars,yeah.

Soyouweregoingalongwithyouroldercousinsdoingthat?---Yeah,following them.

15

Overtheyearsthathavepassedsincethen–becauseithasbeena few yearsnow sinceyoustartedgettingintotrouble,haveyouthoughtaboutthereasons youstarted to getintroublewiththepolice,thereasonsyouwentthatway?---Thereasons–just thoughtitwasjustfunand,yeah.Haven’treallythoughtaboutthereasons.

20

Youspent,then,alotof yourteenageyearsatDonDaleYouthDetentionCentre, haven’tyou?---Yes.

AndwhileyouwereatDonDale, youspentalot oftimeintheBMU?---Yes.

25

Isthatwhat youcalleditwhen youwerethere,didyoucallittheBMUordidyou callitsomethingelse?---Calleditthe–thebackcells.

But youknowwhatImeanwhenItalkabouttheBMU?---Yes.

30

Canyouremembernow,thinkingback,someofthereasonsthatyouwereputinto thebackcells?---Justarguingwith– arguingwithstaffandfightingand–that’sall, really.

35COMMISSIONERWHITE: Yousayin yourstatementthatbeingbyyourselfinthe backcellswasprettyawful?---Yep.

Youreallywantedcompany.Wasthereanyparticularreason?Imean,it’sapretty terribleplace.CommissionerGoodaandIhavevisitedit andit’scertainlynotanice

40placetobe.Wasthereanythingthatwasparticularlyworryingaboutbeingthereby yourself?---Justfeltlonelyand coldand,yes,just –justmakesyoufeelupset,you know.

COMMISSIONERGOODA: Justbeingawayfromother---?---Yes,beingby

45yourself.

---youngpeople?---Yes.

MRMcAVOY: Didyoufeelscaredatallbeingbyyourself?---Yes.

Whatwereyouscaredof?---Scaredof–scaredof losingit.

5Inyourstatementyoutalkaboutsomeofthethingsthatyoudidn’tlikeaboutthe backcells.Youtalkabouthavingheadaches.Howoftenwouldyou get headaches?---Everyday.

Andhowoftenwouldyouneedto getPanadolforthoseheadaches?---Everyday,

10too.

Soeverydayyouwouldhavetoringandsay,“I’vegot aheadacheagaintoday,I

needmorePanadol”?---Yes.

15Andyouhad– could you getwatertodrinkwhenyouwerethere?---Gotwater,but whenthey–whentheywouldcomeand---

Theguardswouldhavetobringyouthewater?---Yes.

20Andwouldtheybringyouthewaterwhen youwerethirstyorwhen youaskedfor it?---Not–notmostofthetime.Wewouldbuzzupandtheywould,like,taketheir timeandstuff,ignoreour calls.

COMMISSIONERGOODA: SowhenyouwereintheBMU,didyouknowwhy

25you

wereputintheBMU?Didtheytellyouhowlong,whatyouweregoingtherefor, howlongyouwouldbe?---Theywouldsay–theywouldgiveuslike–theywould say,“Comedownherefor10minutesoronehour.”

30Becauseyousayin yourstatementthatthegoodguards,itwouldbe10minutesjust tocooloff?---Yes.

Andthat’swhen youwouldhavebeenangry?---Yep.

35MRMcAVOY: Butyou’resayingthatsometimesyouwouldbetoldthatyouwould begoingfor10minutesandwhatwouldhappen?---Anditwouldjustdragouttoan hourorsomething,andthenuntillikemaybethe endoftheshift.Thenthesenior wouldcomedown,tellusthatwe’regetting72hoursdownthere.

40Sosometimes youwouldendupinthebackcellsfor72hoursafterbeingtoldyou’re goingtherefor10minutes?---Yes.

Didthathappenoftenor wasitonceortwice,or---?---No,often.

45Andyousaidin yourstatementthatyoudidn’t–youweren’tableto gotoschool, when youwereinthebackcells,unlessyouhada managementplan;isthat

right?---Yes.

Sowouldyougetamanagementplanpreparedassoonasyouwentintotheback cellsorwouldyouhavetowaitforthat?---Maybeweekslater.

Soforthoseweekswhileyouwerewaitingforthemanagementplanyouwouldhave

5to-youwouldnotbeabletodoanyschoolwork?---No.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Didyouhaveanythingactuallytodowhenyouwere inthosecells?Wereyouallowedtohavebooks,readingmaterial?---No.

10Nothingatall? Whataboutifyougotschoolworkgiventoyou,didyou-were theresheets?---Wasn'tallowedtohave.

Didn'thappen foryou?---No.

15Howdidyoukeepyomselfgoingforallthosehoms?---Bytalkingtotheotherkids.

Soitwasprettyimp01ianttohavecompany,then?---Yes.

MRMcAVOY: Andsowhen therewereotherkidsinthecellsnextdoor,youcould

20talktoeachother?---Yes.

Youcouldn'tseeeachotherbutyoucouldtalk?---Youcouldtalk.

InyomstatementyoutalkaboutsomeoftheguardsatDonDale. Yousaythatyou

25thinkJohnWaltonanda guardnamedLuisLimagavetheboysfromDatwinabitof

ahardertime?---Yes.

Whydoyouthinkthatwas?---Becausetheboysfrom-thelocalkidswouldgetmore harderplmishmentsand,like,theywouldjustwanttoargue. Like,andnot-you

30know. Theywouldwanttoprovokeusandstuff,like. Theywouldjustwantto

argueuntilwe-lmtilthe-the-lmtilwegavethemreasontoputusaway. Intothebackcells?---Yes.

35Andyou-areyousayingthatyoudidn'tseethemtreatingboys,other boys,that way?---No.

Itwas onlytheboysfromDatwin?---Yes, itwasonlyus.

40Andyou'resayingtotheCommissionersthat'swhatyouthink-whyyouthinkthey weredoingitbecauseyouwerefi:omDatwin. That'stheonlyreasonyoucould figme?---Yes,because probablytheythoughtwewastheonesbreakinginarmmd, youknow,thearea.

45Well,bothJohnWaltonandLuisLimahavemadestatements totheCommissionin writingsayingthattheydidn'tgiveyouoranyoftheotherboysfromDatwinahard time. Areyousmeitwasthosetwoofficers?---Yes.

Youspentafair–obviously, you’vetoldusyouspentafairwhileatDonDale.You gottoknowmostoftheofficersbyname,youmusthave?---Yes.

Youhaven’tmisrememberedwhichofficersyou’retalkingabout?---No.

5

Okay.Inyourstatement,youalsotalkaboutagroupofguardsthatcallthemselves, “TheBoysClub”?---Yes.

Wasit–didtheyreferto themselvesastheboyscluborwasitotherpeoplethat

10calledthemthat?---Theycalledthemselvesthat.

Youheardthemsaythatyourself?---Yes.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Anddidtheyusethecapitalletters?---Yes.

15

TBC,isthathowtheyspokeaboutthemselves?---Yes.

MRMcAVOY: Andso theywereopenaboutthat?Itwasn’tasecretthing?---No.

20SoyouwouldjusthearthemtalkingabouttheTBCorTheBoysClub?---Yes.

Andyouhavenamedsomeofthoseguards.ConanZamolo,BenKelleher,John

Walton,in yourstatement?---Yeah.

25But you’vesaidtherewereabouteightofthem?---Yes.

Canyourememberanyoftheothers?---Ican’trememberthem.

Andyou’veidentifiedthose–thatgroupof guards,TheBoysClub,asbadguards

30andyou’vetalkedaboutthewaytheytreatedtheboysdifferently.Canyoujusttell theCommissionersaboutsomeofthedifferentholdsandlocksthattheyputonthe boys?---Theywould–itwouldhurt–thelockstheywouldputusinto,itwas differenttotheotherguards,anditwouldhurtmore,andtheywouldgetusinour pressurepointsandstufflikethat.

35

Andtheotherguardswouldn’tusepressurepoints?---No.

Andtheyuseddifferentmethodstotakedownboys?---Yes.Otherguardswould like,restrainusand–andletuscalmdown.Theywould–sowould,youknow,

40eventuallywalkcalmlytothecells.

Theyalso gotpeopletododares,didn’tthey?---Yes.

That’swhat yousayinyourstatement?---Yes.

45

You’veseensomeoftheboysthatyouwereincustodywithdodares?---Yes.

Andwhatsortofthingswouldpeopledofordares?---Theywouldeatinsectslike cockroaches,andratshit.

Wastherearewardforthat?---Yeah.Theywould–theywouldgetlikedrinksor

5chips,somethinglikethat.

Didyoueverdothat?---Yep.

Whatdidyoudo? Whatwasyourdare?---Iateabitofratshit.

10

Andyoudidn’tputthatin yourstatement,didyou?---No. Youareabitembarrassedaboutit?---Yeah,Iwas.

15COMMISSIONERWHITE: Andwhatwastheatmospherewhen youweredoing that?Becauseobviouslyyouwouldhaveabitofanaudience,wouldn’tyou?You wouldn’tbedoingthat---?---Yeah.

---quietlyandprivately?---Yes.

20

Therewasnopointtoit.Soitwasmeanttobea bitofashow?---Yep. And---?---Itwasfunnyinaway.

25Peoplewouldlaughandshoutandcarryon?---Yeah.

You’vesuggestedinyourstatementthatsomeofthisactivitywasjust boredom?---Yes.

30Youthinkthat’sright?Thattherewasjustnotenoughthingstodo?---Yes.

Didyousometimestalkaboutthesedareswiththeotherboys?---Yeah,wewould.

Whatdidyouthinkofit?Whatdidyouthinkoftheguardsaskingyouto dothese

35dares?---Ithoughtofthemjust–Ithoughtofthemjusthavingfun.

Atyourexpense?---Yeah.

Isthatwhat youthought?---Ithoughtofthemjust having,youknow,justhavinga

40laughor –yes.

Andthesearemostlytheguardsthatyou’vementionedastheTBCguards?---Yes.

Wereanyoftheotherguardsthatyou’veidentifiedin yourstatementasgoodguards,

45weretheyaroundatthetimewhenthesethingswouldhappen?---No–no,can’t---

Probablynot?---No,Ican’tremember.

MRMcAVOY: YoushouldknowthatConanZamolo,andBenKelleherandJohn WaltonhavemadestatementsdenyingthattheycallthemselvesThe BoysClubor TBC.Are yousurethatyou’renotmistakenaboutwhichguardsitwas?---Thatcall themselves?

5

Yes?---No.

You’repositive?---Ican remember.

10Afew yearsagonow–coupleofyearsagonow.You’reconfidentthatthat’sthose guys?---Yeah.

Inyourstatementyoualsotalkaboutbeingaskedtobeatupanotherinmate,Dylan

Voller.Doyourememberthatin yourstatement?---Yes.

15

Doyourememberbeingaskedthat?---Yes.

Doyourememberwhichguardwasthat asked you?---JohnWalton.

20Are yousureaboutthat?---Yes.

JohnWaltonsaidthathehadneveraskedanybodytobeatupanotherinmateor particularlyDylanVoller.Whatdo yousayaboutthat?Doyousaythat’srightor wrong?---That’swrong.

25

Youstandbywhat yousay?---Yeah,it’strue.

Youalsotalkabouttheguardstryingtogettheinmatestoturnoneachother,by saying–bytryingtoblamedetaineesforthingsthathavehappened?---Yes.

30

Doyourecallwhereyousaythatinyourstatement?---Yes.

Andyoutalkaboutsomethingthatyoucan rememberinrelationtoDylanVoller. Whathappenedthere?---WewasgettinglockdownandIwaslike–Ithinkuskids

35wasrefusing.Weweresaying,“Well,giveusareasonwhywe’regettinglocked down,”andIrememberoneoftheguardssaying,“Well,it’sDylanVoller,asusual. It’s Dylan,blamehim.”

Anddo yourememberwhichguardthatwas?---Yes,JohnWalton.

40

Andyou’resureaboutthat?---Yes.

TheCommissionerasked youafewmomentsago aboutguardsthatyouthought weregood.There’saguardthatyoudidabitoftrainingwith,whoyoudidn’t

45mentionin yourstatement,whoyouthoughtwasagoodguard?---Yes.

Whowasthat?---JessePalu.He’saSamoanman.

Sorry?---He’saSamoanman.

Yes.Andhedidsometrainingwithyouandotherboys?---Yes.

5Whatsortoftrainingwashedoing?---Boxingtraining.

And---

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Didyouhavegloves?---No.Wejustdidthatcardio

10stuffand---

Yes.Iunderstand?---Skippingandstuff.

Getting–gettingreadyforit?---Yes.

15

MRMcAVOY: Andwhattimeofthedaywouldyoudothattraining?---Hewould wakeusuplike7o’clockinthemorning,beforebreakfast.Yeah.

Ijustwanttoaskyounowacoupleof questionsaboutthedifferentpunishmentsthat

20you’vetalkedaboutinyourstatement.Inyourstatement,you’vementionedthatyou couldgetfinedasapunishment?---Yes.

Andthatyoucouldgetisolationforashortperiod,thatyoumighthaveacasenote writtenagainstyou,orthatyoumightgoto–besenttotheBMU.Ijustwanttoask

25yousomequestionsabout– firstly,abouttheisolation,beingisolatedforaperiodof time.Whenyousayashortperiod,howshortwouldthatbe?---15minutes.

Wasthatjusttimetocooldownand---?---Yeah.

30Andthenyouwouldbeallowedbackout?---Youwouldbeallowedout.

Andwhen youreferredtocasenotes,isthereanothernameforcase notes?---Reports,incidentreports.

35That’sthesamething?---Yep.

Andsowiththeincidentreports,didyoualways–youhadincidentreportswritten aboutyou?---Yes.

40Anddidyoualwaysknowthatyou–when youhadbeen–hadanincidentreport doneon you?---Notallthetime.

Sohowwouldyoufindout?---Wewould–beforeourreviewday,Iwillaskmy caseworkertoseehowmuchreportsIhaveand,yeah,theywouldtellus.

45

Anditwasimportantforyourreviewastohowmanyincidentreportsandwhatsort theywerehadbeenmadeinthelasttwoweeks?---Yes.

Andso yourcaseworkerwouldtell you?---Yes.

Andtherewouldbereportsinthat,thatyoudidn’tknowabout?---ThatIdidn’tknow about.

5

Didyoueverseeanyofthecasenotes yourself?---Never.Ineverseenthem. Sopeoplejusttoldyouwhatwasinthem,yourcaseworker?---Yes.

10Didanybodyelsetellyouwhatwasinthosecasenotes,oneoftheguards?---Ian

Johns,yeah.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Youspeakwellabouthimin yourstatement.Wehave seenMrJohnshere;hehasgivensomeevidenceattheCommission.Perhaps–

15whatwasitthatmadethegoodguardsdifferentto theguardsthatyoudidnotenjoy havinglookingafter you?---Goodguardswould,like,showedthattheycareandthey willtryandhelpusandtheywillbegoodmentors.

Didyoudothingswiththem?---Yes.

20

Whatsortofthings?---Active,likejustplayingsports,whatwecoulddoin the centre,playedsportsand,yeah,theywould---

Anyotheractualactivities?MrJohnstoldusthathedidsomeotherthingswiththe

25boys.Didyouparticipate?---Working,likecuttinggrass,hewouldgetustodothat, yes.

Andwouldtheytalkto you?---Yes,theywouldtalktous.

30Theywouldtalkto youaboutyourfamilies?---Yes,aboutourfamiliesand– and whatwe’regoingtodo withwhenwegetout,yeah.

Encouragedyouto---?---Todo good.

35Todo goodthings?---Yes.

Getaneducation?

MRMcAVOY: Didyoueverhaveanyofthoseconversationswithanyofthe

40guardsinThe BoysClub?---No.

Are yousure?No?---No.

Withtheincidentreports,didguardseversayanythingtoyouabout,threateningto

45writeupinanincidentreportoracasenote?---Sometimestheywouldbethreatening, likesaying,“You’regoingto getcase-notedifyoudon’tdothis.Ifyoudon’tdo

that,you’regoingto get writtenup.”

Weretheretimeswhen yourcaseworkertoldyouaboutincidentreportsforthings thatyouthink–youthoughtwerewrongorthatyoudidn’tdo?---Yes.

Didthathappenoften?---Likelittlecasenotesoverlittlethingsthat–thatIcould

5havegotafineforor ---

Andwouldsomeguardsuseincidentreportsor casenotesmoreoftenwhenthey couldhaveusedotherthings?---Yes.

10Youdon’tknowwhythatwas?---Idon’tknowwhy.

Ijustwanttoaskyousomequestionsaboutthepartofyourstatementwhereyoutalk aboutstripsearches.You’vesaidinyourstatementthatfromthemiddlecellsinthe BMU,youcouldseethegirlsgettingstripsearchedandgoingtothetoilet.Doyou

15rememberwhereyousaythatin yourstatement?---Yes.

Canyoujustdescribewhatpartofthegirls’toiletyoucouldsee?---Notgirls’toilet. Itwouldbetheadministration,Ithink.

20Administration?---Yes.Itwouldbeinthe–whereyoucomein.

And–theadmissionsarea?---Yes.

Andyoucouldsee–wasthereawallbetween–obviouslytherecouldn’thavebeen

25awall.Wastheresomethinginbetweenthetoiletsandwherethemiddlecells

were?---Therewasaglass.And–buttherewasacabinetbehindtheglasswithfiles. Yes?---Butsometimesitwouldbeleftopen.

30Andifthecabinetwasleftopen,youcouldseethrough?---Yes.

Doyouthinktheguardsknewthatyoucouldseethrough?---Yes.

InyourstatementyoualsotalkaboutaguardnamedYogiwhousedwedgies.Do

35yourecallthat?---Yes.

Andwhowouldpushdetainees’headsdown.Are yousurethatthatwasaguard knownasYogi?---Yes.Trevor.

40Trevor.Well,Icantell youthata guardnamedTrevorHansen,whoisunderstoodto beYogi,hasputinastatementtotheRoyalCommissionandsaidthathenever grabbedanybodybytheunderpantsandneverpushedanydetainees’headsdown. Whatdo yousayaboutthat?---He’slying.

45InyourstatementyoutalkaboutatDonDaleandthen,after thatincident,youweretransferredtoAliceSprings.Canyoujusttellthe Commissionersaboutthattransfer,startingwithwhenyouweretakenfromDon

Daleandwhat youweretoldaboutthetransfer?---Iwasinthebackcellsafterthat incident.Meand .Andtheydidn’t–theydidn’ttellmetheday beforethat,theyjustcameandgotme6o’clockinthemorning,or5o’clock,andI

jumpedinthevanandjustdrovedown.

5

COMMISSIONERGOODA: Didtheytell you,youweregoingtoAlice

Springs?---No.

Itwasalongtrip?---Yeah.

10

17hours.Andtherewerestops?---Yes.

Diditstopanywhereovernight?---Notovernight.Itwasjustforaquicktoiletbreak, yep,andafeed.

15

MRMcAVOY: Soyouweren’tgivenanynoticethatyouweregoingtobe moved?---No.

Yourfamilyweren’ttold?---No.

20

Youknowthatbecauseyouspoketo yourmotheronthetelephone afterwards?---Yes.

Andshewasabitupset?---Yeah.

25

Andyoudidn’tlikehearing yourmotherbeingupset?---No.

Inthebackofthepaddywagonyouwerejustthereon yourown.Therewasnobody elsethere?---Yes.

30

Nofoodorwater?---Iwasn’tgivenablanket,no. Youweren’tgivenablanket?---No.

35Soduringthedayitwashot?---Yes,itwashot.

Andatnight?---Yes,itwascoldthen,aroundtheTennantCreekarea.

Atsomepointyouwerefeelinglike youhadtroublebreathing?---Yeah.

40

Andyouweredizzy.Wasthatfromtheheat?---Yeah.

Itwasduringtheday?---Therewasn’tnowindgettingthrough.

45.

.

.

5

.

10Andthenwheredidyou go?---ThentheysentusontheArandaHouse.

AndwerethereotherboysatArandaHouse?---Yes.

Andyou’vetalkedabouttheproblemsatArandaHousein yourstatement,so Iwon’t

15askyoumorequestionsaboutthat,but youdidn’tthinkitwasaverygoodplaceto keep youngpeople?---No.

Itwasfallingapart?---Yes,itwasoldandtoosmall.

20AndthenyoulatercamebacktoDonDale

?---Yes.

That’syourmemory?---Yes.

25There’sjustafewmorequestionsIwanttoaskyou.WhenyoucamebacktoDon Dale–well,Iwillwithdrawthat.Inyourstatement,youtalkaboutbeingfilmedin theshowersatDonDale?---Yep.

Didthatappafter youcamebackfrombeinginAliceSpringsorbeforeor you’renot

30sure?---Thatwasafter,acoupleofyearson.

Andyouwerefilmedusingamobilephone?---Yes.

Anditwasbyaguard?---Yes.

35

Whowastheguard?---ConanZamolo.

Inyourstatement, youtalkaboutConansayingsomethingabouttheinternetor

Skype?---Yes.

40

DoyouknowwhatSkypeis?---Yeah.

Youdo? You’veusedSkype?---No,never.

45But you’vebeentoldwhatitis?---Yeah,beentold.

AndyoutalkaboutseeingConanfilminganother youngperson?---Yes.

Youknowthatperson’sname,but youhaven’tputitin yourstatement?---Yep.

You’resurethatitwasConan?---Yes,itwashim.

5Atparagraph100ofyourstatement– couldyoujusthavealookatparagraph100– you’vemadesomerecommendationsthattheCommissionerscanhaveregardtoand thinkabout.Thefirstone,aboutnotbeingisolatedindetention,that’savery importantone;yes?---Yep.

10You– correctmeifIam wrong,butareyousayingthatthatbeinginisolationwas thereallytheworstpartandchangedyou?---Yeah.

That’swhat youthink?---Yep.

15Whenyousayat(c),100(c)that:

Workersandguardsshouldbepropermentorandkindtokids,shouldn’ttease, scareorhurtus.

20You’resayingthatbecausethosewerethethingsthatyoufeltwhen youwere there?---Yes.

Andyoudon’twantotherkidscomingthroughto experiencethatsamething.Isthat

---?---Yes.

25

ArethereanyotherthingsthatyouwouldliketotelltheCommissionersoraddto yourstatementortherecommendations?---No.That’sallthat.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Yousay,atthebeginningofthatparagraph,thatyou

30thinkyou’vemissedyourchance.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Alright.Iunderstand.

5

MRMcAVOY: IhavenofurtherquestionsforAY,Commissioners,atthispoint.I

dohavesomefurtherresponsivestatementstotender.Icandothatnow.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: MrCrowleymighthavesomequestions.

10

EXAMINATIONBYMRCROWLEY[10.58am]

15MRCROWLEY: Justonematter,Commissioners.AY,canIjustaskyouabout– inthatlastparagraphof yourstatementwhen youtalkedabouttherecommendation thatguardsandworkersshouldbepropermentors.Whenyousay“propermentors”, whatarethesortofthingsthatyoufeelpropermonitorsshouldbe?---Liketeachers– liketeachingyouthings,andsittingdownandtalkingtoyou,likeacounsellor,you

20know,like---

Inthetime---?---Encouragingyou.

Encouragingyou?---Yes.

25

Inthetimewhen youwereindetention, youmentionedsomeoftheguardsthatwere likementorsto you.Arethosethetypeofthingsthatyoufeltthattheyofferedas mentors?---Yes.

30Andwhen yousay“teaching”,areyoutalkingaboutschoolteachingorjustteaching youthingsaboutlifein general?---Yes,aboutlife.

Yes.Thankyou,thosearethequestionsIhave,Commissioners.

35MRMcAVOY: Nore-examination.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Wouldyouliketo –do youwanttotenderthose?

MRMcAVOY: Yes.There’sthreeresponsivestatements:onefromaMrLuis

40Lima,speltL-u-i-sL-i-m-a,dated22March2017.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Exhibit342.

MRMcAVOY: ThestatementofJamieClee,dated15March2017.

45

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Exhibit343.

MRMcAVOY: AndthestatementofTrevorHansen,dated13March2017.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Exhibit344.

5MRMcAVOY: Thatconcludestheevidencefromthiswitness,Commissioners,and hecanbereleased.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thanks,MrMcAvoy.

10COMMISSIONERGOODA: AY,onbehalfofCommissionerWhiteandmyself, canIthank youforcomingalongandgivingyourevidence.Therehasbeenawhole lotofevidencegivenbyawholelotofpeople.Wenowtakeallthatevidenceand hopefullycanrecommendtheimplementationofsomeofthosethingsthatyou’ve

gotinyour–inthatlast paragraphofyourstatement,howthingscouldbe betterfor

15youngpeoplegoingintoDonDale---?---Yes.

---or anydetentioncentre.Sothank you?---Thanks.

20THEWITNESSWITHDREW[11.02am]

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Thankyou.

25MRMcAVOY: Thenextwitnessisinopencourt.Sothereneedstobe ashort adjournmenttoallowthenecessarytransitiontooccur.

COMMISSIONERWHITE: Yes,wewilltakethatadjournmentthen.Thankyou. It’s always15minutes,itseems.Yes,IseeJasonnodding,so15minutes.Thank

30you.

ADJOURNED[11.02am]

35

ENDOFEXTRACT

Indexof WitnessEvents

AY,AFFIRMEDP-2

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEFBYMRMcAVOYP-2

EXAMINATIONBYMRCROWLEYP-18

THEWITNESSWITHDREWP-19

Indexof ExhibitsandMFIs

EXHIBIT#341STATEMENTOFAYP-3

EXHIBIT#342RESPONSIVETENDERBUNDLEP-4

EXHIBIT#343BEDRECORDSRELATINGTOAYP-5