Anyone Like to Take up That Point? Yes
565
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,549
anyone like to take up that point? yes
566
00:27:26,549 --> 00:27:28,350
I feel like when you live in a society
567
00:27:28,350 --> 00:27:31,649
you give up that right, I mean technically, if I want to
personally
568
00:27:31,649 --> 00:27:35,600
and kill someone because they offend me, that is
self-possession. Because
569
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,949
I live in a society I cannot do that
570
00:27:37,950 --> 00:27:41,200
Victoria, are you questioning
571
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,890
the fundamental premise of self-possession? yes.
572
00:27:44,890 --> 00:27:49,550
I think that you don't really have self-possession
if you choose to live in a society because
573
00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:52,860
you cannot just discount the people around you.
574
00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:57,809
we were talking last time about libertarianism
575
00:27:57,809 --> 00:28:04,510
I want to go back to the arguments for and
against the redistribution of income
576
00:28:04,510 --> 00:28:06,879
but before we do that
577
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,990
just one word about the state
578
00:28:10,990 --> 00:28:12,820
Milton Friedman the
579
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:15,060
libertarian economist
580
00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:16,879
he points out
581
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,190
that many of the functions
582
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:21,240
that we take for granted
583
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,080
as properly belonging to government, don’t
584
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,210
they are paternalist. one example he gives is social
security
585
00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:33,570
he says it's a good idea
586
00:28:33,570 --> 00:28:36,840
for people to save for their retirement
587
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,120
during their earning years
588
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,919
but it's wrong
589
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,310
it's a violation of people's liberty
590
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:47,350
for the government to force
591
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:48,939
everyone
592
00:28:48,940 --> 00:28:50,600
whether they want to or not
593
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,219
to put aside some
594
00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:55,150
earnings today
595
00:28:55,150 --> 00:28:59,130
for the sake of their retirement. If people
want to take the chance
596
00:28:59,130 --> 00:29:01,820
or if people want to live big today and live
597
00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:04,570
a poor
598
00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:05,590
retirement
599
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:08,678
that should be their choice they should be
free
600
00:29:08,679 --> 00:29:12,130
to make those judgments and take those risks
601
00:29:12,130 --> 00:29:14,640
so even social security
602
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,129
would still be at odds with the minimal state
603
00:29:17,129 --> 00:29:19,090
that Milton Friedman
604
00:29:19,090 --> 00:29:20,909
argued for
605
00:29:20,910 --> 00:29:22,910
it's sometimes thought that
606
00:29:22,910 --> 00:29:29,360
collective goods like police protection and
fire protection
607
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:36,360
inevitably create the problem of free riders
unless their publicly provided
608
00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:41,290
but there are ways to
609
00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:44,428
prevent free riders, there are ways to
610
00:29:44,429 --> 00:29:49,570
restrict even seemingly collective goods like
fire protection
611
00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:51,059
I read an article
612
00:29:51,059 --> 00:29:57,960
a while back about a private fire company
the Salem Fire corporation in Arkansas
613
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,260
you can sign up with this Salem Fire Corporation
614
00:30:01,260 --> 00:30:03,390
pay a yearly subscription fee,
615
00:30:03,390 --> 00:30:05,110
and if your house catches on fire
616
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:08,179
they will come and put out the fire
617
00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,320
but they won't put out
618
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:11,800
everybody's fire,
619
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,490
they will only put it out
620
00:30:14,490 --> 00:30:16,290
if it's a fire
621
00:30:16,290 --> 00:30:17,509
in the home of subscriber
622
00:30:17,509 --> 00:30:20,490
or if it starts to spread
623
00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:21,960
and to threaten
624
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:23,790
the home of a subscriber
625
00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:29,680
the newspaper article told the story of a
homeowner who had subscribed
626
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,620
to this company in the past
627
00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:36,330
but failed to renew his subscription his house
caught on fire
628
00:30:36,330 --> 00:30:39,649
the Salem Fire Corporation showed up with
its trucks
629
00:30:39,650 --> 00:30:41,860
and watched the house burn.
630
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:45,540
Just making sure that it didn't spread
631
00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:48,010
the fire chief was asked
632
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:52,210
well he wasn't exactly the fire chief I guess
he was the CEO
633
00:30:52,210 --> 00:30:53,419
he was asked
634
00:30:53,419 --> 00:30:55,789
how can you stand by with fire equipment
635
00:30:55,789 --> 00:30:59,010
and allow a person's home to burn?
636
00:30:59,010 --> 00:31:03,250
he replied once we verified there was no
danger to a member's property
637
00:31:03,250 --> 00:31:04,870
we had no choice
638
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:06,418
but to back off
639
00:31:06,419 --> 00:31:10,839
according to our rules. If we responded to
all fires, he said, there would be no incentive
640
00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:13,169
to subscribe
641
00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:19,660
the homeowner in this case tried to renew
his subscription at the scene of the fire
642
00:31:19,660 --> 00:31:22,050
but the head of the company refused
643
00:31:22,050 --> 00:31:27,700
you can't wreck your car, he said, and then
buy insurance for it later
644
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:33,049
so even public goods that we take for granted
as being within the proper province of government
645
00:31:33,049 --> 00:31:36,500
can, many of them, in principle
646
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:40,530
be isolated, made exclusive to those who pay.
647
00:31:40,530 --> 00:31:41,879
that's all to do with
648
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,230
the question of collective goods
649
00:31:44,230 --> 00:31:47,010
and the libertarian's injunction against
650
00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:50,059
paternalism
651
00:31:50,059 --> 00:31:52,539
let's go back now to the
652
00:31:52,539 --> 00:31:56,950
arguments about redistribution
653
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:58,440
now, underlying
654
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,899
the libertarian's case
655
00:32:00,899 --> 00:32:04,299
for the minimal states
656
00:32:04,299 --> 00:32:09,309
is a worry about coercion, but what's wrong
with coercion?
657
00:32:09,309 --> 00:32:14,100
libertarian offers this
658
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:18,689
answer to coerce someone
659
00:32:18,690 --> 00:32:23,310
to use some person for the sake of the general welfare
660
00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:25,290
is wrong
661
00:32:25,290 --> 00:32:25,960
because
662
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,740
it calls into question the fundamental fact
663
00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:32,809
that we own ourselves
664
00:32:32,809 --> 00:32:34,549
the fundamental moral fact
665
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:39,110
of self-possession or self ownership
666
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:44,678
the libertarian's argument against redistribution
667
00:32:44,679 --> 00:32:49,660
begins with this fundamental idea that we
own ourselves
668
00:32:49,660 --> 00:32:51,350
Nozick says
669
00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:53,830
that if
670
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:55,710
this is society as a whole
671
00:32:55,710 --> 00:32:57,910
can go to Bill Gates
672
00:32:57,910 --> 00:32:59,900
or go to Michael Jordan
673
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,260
and tax away a portion
674
00:33:02,260 --> 00:33:04,210
of their wealth,
675
00:33:04,210 --> 00:33:07,669
what the society is really asserting
676
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:11,830
is a collective property right
677
00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:13,530
in Bill Gates
678
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:16,490
or in Michael Jordan
679
00:33:16,490 --> 00:33:18,180
but that violates
680
00:33:18,180 --> 00:33:19,870
the fundamental principle
681
00:33:19,870 --> 00:33:23,350
that we belong to ourselves
682
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:27,490
now we've already heard a number of
objections
683
00:33:27,490 --> 00:33:30,890
to the libertarian argument
684
00:33:30,890 --> 00:33:33,000
what I would like to do today
685
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,490
it's to give
686
00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:38,660
the libertarians among us
687
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:41,990
a chance to answer the objections
688
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:43,620
that have been raised
689
00:33:43,620 --> 00:33:45,889
and some have been some
690
00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:49,429
have already identified themselves have agreed
to
691
00:33:49,429 --> 00:33:51,659
come and make the case
692
00:33:51,659 --> 00:33:56,230
for libertarianism to reply to the objections
that have been raised
693
00:33:56,230 --> 00:34:02,470
so raise your hand if you are among the libertarians
who's prepared to stand up
694
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:06,370
for the theory and response to the objections
695
00:34:06,370 --> 00:34:09,649
you are? Alex Harris. Alex Harris who
696
00:34:09,649 --> 00:34:12,440
he's been a star on the web blog, alright Alex
697
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,519
come here stand-up
698
00:34:14,518 --> 00:34:19,508
we'll create a libertarian corner over
here
699
00:34:19,509 --> 00:34:22,998
and who else other libertarians
700
00:34:22,998 --> 00:34:26,178
who will join
701
00:34:26,179 --> 00:34:30,199
what's you're name? John.
702
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,139
John Sheffield, John, and who else wants to join
703
00:34:34,139 --> 00:34:36,819
other brave libertarians who are prepared
704
00:34:36,819 --> 00:34:38,759
to take on yes
705
00:34:38,759 --> 00:34:40,879
what's your name
706
00:34:40,879 --> 00:34:43,538
Julia Roto, Julia come
707
00:34:43,539 --> 00:34:44,899
join us over there
708
00:34:44,899 --> 00:34:46,379
now while the,
709
00:34:46,379 --> 00:34:53,058
team libertarian
710
00:34:53,059 --> 00:34:54,959
Julia, John, Alex
711
00:34:54,958 --> 00:34:58,779
while team libertarian is gathering
over there
712
00:34:58,779 --> 00:35:01,089
let me just summarize
713
00:35:01,089 --> 00:35:03,499
the main objections that I've heard
714
00:35:03,499 --> 00:35:07,238
in class and on the web site
715
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,489
objection number one
716
00:35:11,489 --> 00:35:15,699
and here I'll come down too, I want to talk
to team libertarian over here
717
00:35:15,699 --> 00:35:18,079
so objection number one
718
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:19,959
is that
719
00:35:19,959 --> 00:35:22,979
the poor need the money more
720
00:35:22,979 --> 00:35:24,819
that's an obvious objection
721
00:35:24,819 --> 00:35:26,189
a lot more
722
00:35:26,189 --> 00:35:27,709
than
723
00:35:27,709 --> 00:35:30,038
than do
724
00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:33,109
Bill Gates and Michael Jordan
725
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:35,598
objection number two
726
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:39,749
it's not really slavery to tax
727
00:35:39,749 --> 00:35:40,788
because
728
00:35:40,789 --> 00:35:44,329
at least in a democratic society
729
00:35:44,329 --> 00:35:48,059
there's not a slave holder
730
00:35:48,059 --> 00:35:49,539
it's congress
731
00:35:49,539 --> 00:35:54,039
it's a democratic, you're smiling Alex, you're
already a confident you can reply to all of
732
00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:57,390
these
733
00:35:57,390 --> 00:36:00,930
so taxation by consent of the governed is not
coerced
734
00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:02,019
third
735
00:36:02,019 --> 00:36:05,468
some people have said don't be successful
736
00:36:05,469 --> 00:36:06,599
like Gates
737
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:11,289
owe a debt to society for their success that
they repay by paying taxes
738
00:36:11,289 --> 00:36:16,449
who wants to respond to the first one the
poor need the money more all right
739
00:36:16,449 --> 00:36:17,709
you're John
740
00:36:17,709 --> 00:36:19,230
John all right John
741
00:36:19,230 --> 00:36:22,219
what's the answer, here I'll hold it.
742
00:36:22,219 --> 00:36:23,799
alright
743
00:36:23,799 --> 00:36:25,859
the poor need the money more,
that's quite obvious
744
00:36:25,859 --> 00:36:29,808
I could use money you know I certainly wouldn't
mind if Bill Gates gave me a million dollars
745
00:36:29,809 --> 00:36:30,420
I mean
746
00:36:30,420 --> 00:36:33,009
I'd take a thousand
747
00:36:33,009 --> 00:36:34,669
but at some point
748
00:36:34,669 --> 00:36:39,669
you have to understand that the benefits of
redistribution of wealth don't justify the
749
00:36:39,669 --> 00:36:42,009
initial violation of the property right
750
00:36:42,009 --> 00:36:44,130
if you look at the argument the poor need
the money
751
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:49,930
more at no point in that argument you contradict
the fact that we extrapolated from agreed
752
00:36:49,930 --> 00:36:52,489
upon principles that people own themselves
753
00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:56,749
we've extrapolated that people have property
rights and so whether or not it would be a
754
00:36:56,749 --> 00:36:58,430
good thing or a nice thing
755
00:36:58,430 --> 00:37:01,669
or even a necessary thing for the survival
of some people
756
00:37:01,669 --> 00:37:05,839
we don't see that that justifies the violation
of the right that we logically extrapolated
757
00:37:05,839 --> 00:37:08,558
and so that also I mean
758
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:10,920
they're still exist this institution of
759
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,849
of individual philanthropy, Milton Freidman makes
this argument
760
00:37:14,849 --> 00:37:19,749
alright so Bill gates can give to charity if he wants to
761
00:37:19,749 --> 00:37:22,698
but it would still be wrong to coerce him
762
00:37:22,699 --> 00:37:23,650
exactly
763
00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:28,269
to meet the needs of the poor.
764
00:37:28,269 --> 00:37:30,419
are the two of you happy with that reply?
765
00:37:30,420 --> 00:37:32,559
anything to add? alright
766
00:37:32,559 --> 00:37:36,809
Go ahead, Julie? Julia, ya, I think I could also ass
767
00:37:36,809 --> 00:37:39,099
I guess I could add that
768
00:37:39,099 --> 00:37:43,489
there's a difference between needing something and deserving
something. I mean in an ideal society everyone's
769
00:37:43,489 --> 00:37:44,309
needs would be met
770
00:37:44,309 --> 00:37:48,200
but here we're arguing what do we deserve as a society
771
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,859
and the poor don't
772
00:37:50,859 --> 00:37:52,169
deserve
773
00:37:52,169 --> 00:37:57,439
the benefits that would flow from taxing Michael
Jordan to help
774
00:37:57,439 --> 00:38:00,078
them. Based on what we've come up with here, I don't think
775
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:01,440
you deserve something
776
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,890
like that. Alright let me,
777
00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:05,249
push you a little bit on that Julia
778
00:38:05,249 --> 00:38:08,529
the victims of hurricane Katrina
779
00:38:08,529 --> 00:38:11,569
are in desperate need of help
780
00:38:11,569 --> 00:38:14,269
would you say that they don't
781
00:38:14,269 --> 00:38:16,609
deserve
782
00:38:16,609 --> 00:38:18,929
the help that would come
783
00:38:18,929 --> 00:38:22,539
from the federal government through taxation.
784
00:38:22,539 --> 00:38:24,679
okay that's a, difficult question