ROMANS 9 - ELECTION 68
(An excerpt from the Hong Kong Romans study led by Walt
Henrichsen in Hong Kong , March 2000, pages 110-122 of notes)
WALT - I divided chapter 9 into four parts. Vss 1-5, the lamentation for rejected Israel; vss 6-13, spitirual Israel is distinguished from physical Isreal; vss 14-24, the double edge of election explained; vss 25-33, election is based on an imputed rather than a works righteousness.
ASSUME NO ELECTION
WALT - Gentlemen, let's suppose for a moment that there is no election. What I want you to do is tell me, if there is no election, and it's up to the individual, what does the individual have to do or believe in order to get to heaven?
VICTOR - The message of salvation.
WALT - Well, what is included in the message of salvation?
VICTOR - We are sinners, Jesus died for our sins, and I believe that.
WALT - Allright. Now suppose that as I study the Bible, I am sincerely wrong. I come to the wrong conclusion. Let's say for example, John 10, where the religious leaders say, "We want to stone you because you being a man profess to be God." To which Jesus responds, "Have you read the Psalms, ye are Gods. If the Psalmist says that people are gods, why do you take exception with me if I am called the Son of God?" And I say to myself, "Jesus is clearly teaching that he's not God." Now that is not a willful mistake, that is a sincere mistake. Does that bar me from heaven? Because remember it's what I do, yes or no? Let's assume for a second, "no", How wrong can I be if I am sincere? I've already eliminated the diety of Christ, and you said that won't affect me. Let's say I am sincere in being a Buddhist. Does that affect me? Can I get to heaven by being a Buddhist if I am sincere? I can go to heaven and not believe in the diety of Christ if I am sincere, but I cannot get to heaven and be a Buddhist if I am sincere? I'm wrong but I am sincere. So where is the line? You said I didn't cross it by denying the diety of Christ, but I did cross it by becoming a Buddhist. Now in both cases there is nothing willful. I am sincere.
THOMAS - But it's your standard
. WALT - No, no, it's my understanding of what I think God's standard is. Remember, now, I am not trying to put into this anything willful. I'm sincere. This is a case study. I get to control the case and I am telling you willfulness is not involved in it.
RICHARD - You've got to be sincerely correct.
WALT - OK, I am sincerely incorrect regarding the diety of Jesus. Does that mean that I can't go to heaven?
LEE - You said ignorance is no excuse?
WALT - Now I'm asking you.
LEE - Well, you said ignorance is no excuse, so therefore you will still be culpable.
WALT - I don't remember saying ignorance is no excuse. This is a control study in which I'm not making such an assertion. We are assuming election does not exist. I'm asking what do I have to do or believe in order to be assured of heaven?
LEE - Also in chapter 1 of Romans there is no such thing as ignorance. Everbody's got some culpability.
WALT - Allright I agree with that, but remember, no election. How am I going to overcome this problem?
LEE - If you process correctly that which you know.
WALT - OK, process correctly what I know, but what if I don't know it?
LEE - Then you're OK, but if you in any small way say or think or dream that Jesus Christ...... then you are in deep trouble.
WALT - Why?
LEE - Because he is the revealed Son of God, and you have just rejected him. The only way you can possibly get to heaven in your line of argument is to be so isolated in some igloo, or some Mongolian hootch, and keep all missionaries away from you, and all media, TV, etc. Then you might possibly be able to get to heaven.....and believe in some totum pole.
WALT - OK, so I am now in my Mongolian hootch in 150 AD and I guarantee you no missionary has found me. What do I have to do to get to heaven?
LEE - You just have to realize your need. You have to realize that something is amiss here. You've got to groan.
WALT-OK,Igroan. Imeetthequalificationofgroaning. Iamnowinmyhootchgroaning. Nowwhat?
LEE-Nowyouhavetosay,"somebodyhelpme."
WALT-I'vesaidit.
LEE-Withorwithoutananswer,Ithinkyou'dgetin.
WALT-I'min. Soasinceregroan,irrespectiveofwhereIamintheworldgetsmein?
LEE-Well,don'tmakefunofit.
WALT-Ohno,no,no,no,Mr.Yee. I'maskingforclarification. That'sallI'masking.
THOMAS-Didyoumentionthatthevalidityofyourfaithdependsontheobject? Ifyoubelieveinthewrongthing,eventhoughyou'resincere......
ROMANS9,page2 69
WALT-Good,sothatmeansthatallthesepeopleintheworldbeforethegospelgottothemareexcluded,period?
THOMAS-UnlessGodrevealedtothem,sothatsomehowtheycametotherightobject.
ELECTIONISFAVORITISM
WALT-Allright. Nowremembertherecanbenoelection. SothatmeansthatGodcannotcometotheMongolianhootch,andnotcometoallofChina,becausethat'sfavoritism,that'selection,andwexedthat. Soifhecomestoonehecomestoall. Otherwiseyouhaveelection. Andwe'vealreadyeliminatedelection. Sowexedallofthesepeoplebeforethegospel. Nowlet'sgettheguywho'sgotthegospel. HowaccurateanunderstandingofthegospeldoIhavetohave? Forexample,IrememberwhereIfirstbecameachristian,andImetacoupleofreprobateswhosaidtheywerebelieversbecausetheywerebaptised. AndIsaidtomyself,baptismisanimpedimenttothegospel. AndIread1Corinthians1wherePaulsaid,"IthankGodthatIbaptisednoneofyousaveCrispusandGaius. BesidesIbaptisedalsothehouseof Stephanas. IknownotwhetherIbaptisedanyothers,forChristsentmenottobaptise,buttopreachthegospel." AndIsaidPaulagreeswithme. It'sanimpediment,thereforeIxedit. Iwaswrong. Wouldthatwronghavejeopardizedmysalvation? Sincerelywrong,butwrong. SotheguyreadsJohn10andconcludesJesusisnotGod. Sincerelywrong,butwrong. Sohehasthemessage. Hehastheinformation,buthemisunderstandsit. Notintentionally. Hejustdoesnotgetit. Andbesides,Ibeingtheexample,andInotbeingallthatbright,thingsdon'tcometogetherallthatclearlyforme. Whereisthelinebetweenacceptableandunacceptable? Gentlemen,Isuggesttoyouthatthatisthedilemmathatyoufacewiththedoctrineofelection. Itplacesyouinanuntenableposition. It'sniceinthatiteliminatestheproblemofoffendingyourmoralsensibility. Butwhenyouexploreitsimplications,youfindoutthatthealternativeisworse. Sowiththatbackground,let'stalkaboutRomans9.
JOSEPH-Wouldthatprecludesomeonewhosaysthatbeingsincerelywrongdoesn'tgettoheaven? Sotherewillbeawholehostofpeoplewhowillsaysincerityistheissue. See,we'rekindamixing......
WALT-Theconditionisbelief. Beliefrequirescontent. Contentassumesrevelation. Electionassumesthattherevelationisnotgiventoeverybody.
LEE-Itoffendsyoursensibilitybecauseitseemsunfair.
WALT-Correct.
LEE-Butthenwhenyoutrytogodowntheroadyoujusttookus,yousay,wellwe'llgobacktotheunfairness ,becausegoingdownthiswayisevenworse.
WALT-Correct.
LEE-I'dneverthoughtaboutit. Butthatisaweirdwaytothink. Atleastitmakesmefeelbetteraboutelection.
NOTBELIEVINGINELECTIONISIRRATIONAL
WALT-Well,I'maweirdguy. It'sprettyinterestinggentlemen,I'mwithagroupofnon-christians,andIaskthisquestion: Let'sassumethatthereisnoGod. Andlet'sassumethatourtask,sittingaroundthislivingroom,istocreatehim. Let'screateGodwiththeattributesthatwewouldlikehimtohave. Andsowestart. Ittakesabout30minutes,andgentlemen,weendupwiththeGodofthescriptures. I'mtellingyou,it'snotthatdifficult. Yousaytome,wellthat'sacrazywaytolookatit. Well,notreally. Polytheismisirrational. Notbelievinginelectionisnotrational. Itisirrational. Everythinkingmanintheworldbelievesinelection,ordotheyjustcallitpre-determinism? Butamandoesnothavetostopandthinkverylongbeforeherealizesheisnotincontrol. Hedidn'tdecidehisbirth,hisparents,colorofskin. Hedidn'tdecidehisintellect. Hedidn'tdecidehissex. Thereareveryfewthingsthathedecided. Andbesidesthat,heworksrealhard,andahurricanecomesalongandwipeshimout. Hebelievesinelection. Youbethedoes. It'sirrationalnottobelieveinit Thedifferenceinelectioninthescripturesandpredeterminismoutsidethescripturesispurpose. Wemaynotunderstandthepurpose. Itisnotrandom. Itisnotfickle. It'srational.
VERSES1-5
WALT-InessencetheauthorsaysthatblessingofGoddoesnoteliminateelection. GodtakesthenationofIsraelandheblessesitwiththislitanyofthings,butthatdoesnotmeanthatelectionisnotnecessary. Anyquestionsorcommentsonverses1-5?
THOMAS-Welllet'sgobacktoelection. Youmentionedsex,colorofskinandallthat. Cananunbelieverbelievethatthat'sallrandom. Itjusthappensasachanceblessingbeingborntoacertainfamily,ratherthanenelectionfromGod?
WALT-I'msurealotofthemdo. Buthedoesunderstandthathe'snotcontrolingtheprocess.
THOMAS-There'snopurpose,onlyakindofexperiment,orchance.
WALT-Yeah,butanexperimentimpliesapurpose. But ifthere'snopurpose,there'snoexperiment,justkindofahappening. Hereweare. Wedidn'tcomefromanyplace,andwe'renotgoinganywhere. Notmuchtohopefor,isthere? That'swhytheexistentialististheclearestthinkerfromanon-christianperspective. Lifeisasickjoke. Mightaswellmakesomethingoutofitifyoucan.
ROMANS9,page3 70
VICTOR-Sofortheelectionpart,sayyou'recominginthisroom,andweare20-somethingchairs. Sooneofthechairsistobeelectedandwepickthatchair. Arewejusttryingtodecorateourselvestoattractyoutoelectustobeyourchair?
WALT-Ithappenedbeforethefoundationoftheworld.
VICTOR-Butwhatshouldwedototrytobeelected?
WALT-Let'sseewhatPaulsaysaboutthatinRomans9and10.
VERSES6-13
WALT-Let'sgotoverses6-13wheretheactionstarts. WebeginwithAbraham,anditsaysthatnotallofthedescendantsofAbrahamareheirstothepromisegiventoAbraham. SoIshmaelandthechildrenofKeturaharenotincluded. Isaacisthechildofpromise. Sohesaysthey'vegotdifferentmothers. Let'sgoalittledeeper. Let'stalkaboutRebekah. NowRebekahhadtwosons,JacobandEsau. "Beforetheywereborn,beforetheycoulddoanygoodorevil,thatthepurposeofGodaccordingtoelectionmightstand,notofworks,butofhimthatcalled,itwassaidtoher,JacobhaveIloved,butEsauhaveIhated." Letmeaskyou,howcanyoumakeitanymorestarkthanthat?
LEE-That'satoughverse!
TWOOBJECTIONS
WALT-Nowtheindividualunfamiliarwiththismaterial,havingheardverse13,whatisalogicalresponse?
STUDENT-Unfair.
WALT-Unfair. Isthereanyotherresponse? Theotherobjectiontoit? Answer: Ifthatisthecase,howcanGodmakeamanaccountable? Howcanhefindfault? Thesearethetwoobjections,andnotewithme,thesearethetwoobjectionstheapostleraisesandanswers. Thefirstinverses14-18,thesecondinverses19-24. Thefirstobjectionisfoundinverse14. "IsGodunjust?" Isheunfair? Thesecondinverse19. "Whocanresisthiswill?" Now,howdoesheanswerthefirst? Howdoesherebuttit? Kevin,howdidhedoit?
KEVIN-He'sGodandhedecides.
WALT-Yeah. Atfirstblushyousaytoyourself,"Hedidn'tanswerthequestion-hejustsimplysidestepped." Allhesaysis,"He'sGod." LetmesuggestthatthepointofPaul'sargumentisthatjusticeimpliesentitlement. Itimpliesaright. InmycountryifIamarrestedandbroughtbeforethecourtinacriminalcharge,Icanapproachthecourtwithonlyoneoftwopleas. IcansayguiltyaschargedinwhichcaseIpleadthemercyofthecourt. Or,Icansaynotguilty,inwhichcaseIsaytothecourt,thechargesoftheprosecutionareunjust. Myrightshavebeenviolated,andIpetitionthecourttodismissthechargesandsetmefree. SoIgotothecourtwitharight,anentitlement. Iam,asacitizenoftheU.S.,entitledtocertainthings,andmypleabeforethecourtisthattheprosecutionisdenyingthoserights. Areweagreed? Isthatclear? Paulissayingthatrightshavenothingtodowithelection Theprocessofelectiondoesnotviolatearight. It'sirrelevant. Godisnotobligatedtoyoubyvirtueofthefactthathecreatedyou. Yourexistencedoesnotimplyaright. Thereforefairnessandjusticeisnotanissue. Isthatclear?
STUDENT-Thepurposeofyourexistencedoesn'tmeanthatyouhavearight?
WALT-Right. Anymorethanthechairhasarightbyvirtueofthefactthatyoumadeit. Noticehere,gentlementhatit'snotamoralissue. Hedoesnottalkaboutthesinfulnessanddepravityofmaninthispassage. Electionisnotamoralissue,there'snojusticeorinjusticeinvolved.
BART-Iunderstandhow,injustice,everyonewouldbecondemned. WhatIdon'tunderstandisifIcometoGod,andIrecognizethatfact,yesI'mguilty. Butwhywouldyouchoosehimoverme? Whyshedmercyonhimandnotonme?
WALT-Ionlyneedtoshowmercyonyouifyousin. Andelectionhasnothingtodowithsin,ithastodowithselection. IfIwanttoselectAandnotB,that'smyperogative.
LEE-Thethingthathashelpedmewiththisisthatelectionwasdoneineternitypast,nottoday,soit'snotlookingatpeopleatthistableandsaying,Ielectyouanddon'telectyou. It'speopleatthistablethatwereelectedbeforetheywereborn,notthatitchangesanyofthejusticepartofit. Butjusticewasdonewellbeforeallthemoralissueswerestarted.
WALT-Justiceisnotanissue.
RICHARD-Ithinkwehavetostandonthepositionthatthecreaturehasnorights.
WALT-Exactly. That'sthepoint. ThefactthatGodcreatedyoudoesnoendowyouwitharight. WhenyoumovetoCanadaandbecomeaCanadiancitizen,thatinfersonyoucertainrights. UndertheDeclarationofIndependenceweareendowedwithcertaininaliablerights. NotsowithGod. Theproblemiswegetconfusedwhenwecarrytherightswethinkwehavebyvirtueofbeingacitizenofaparticularcountry,intoourrelationshipwithGod. AgainIsaytoyou,gentlemen,whenGodcreatedyouhedidnotobligatehimself. Let'ssayforexamplethatyouandLisajoinedThomasinatriptothemainland,andyougotoanorphanagewith1000children. YouandLisadecideyouaregoingtotakeoneofthemasyourchild. Youpickoneofthem. Andthe999thatareleft,whovery,verynuchwanttobeyourchild,sayyou'vebeenunjust. It'snotfair. Theansweris,justiceandfairnessarenotthequestion.
ROMANS9,page4 71
Yourpresenceintheorphanagedoesnotobligateyouatall. AndifyouwanttoselectoneofthemforreasonsbetweenyouandLisa,thathasnothingtodowiththeunderstandingofthosechildren. That'syourperogative.
ANTHONY-IthinktheorphanageillustrationworkstothepointwhereoneconsidersthatGodistheAlmighty,unlikecertaincoupleswhohavealimitedcapacityandcouldn'ttakeallofthechildren,whereasGodistheAlmighty,soonewouldwonderwhyhedoesn'tchooseeveryone.
WALT-BecausehesaidIdon'twantto.
ANTHONY-ItraisesthequestionaboutGod'sloveforus. IcanacceptthatGodcreatedusforhisownpleasure,andisnotobligatedtoelecteveryoneofus,butishestilllovingtoalldespitethefactheelectssomeandnotothers.
WALT-Well,Anthony,ifGodsays,"Yes,asamatteroffactIdolovethemall,andIacceptsomeandrejectsome",areyougoingtochargehimwithinconsistency? Areyougoingtosay,"Thatcannotbe"?
ANTHONY-IagreewithRichard,wearetheclay; heisthepotter. Butitisadifficultpilltoswallow.
WALT-Wellgentlemen,thatisanalogoustoGod'srelationshipwithJob. Andthat'swhatJobsaidtoGod. AndGodsaid,"Unacceptable,Idon'twantresignation,Iwantsubmission." WhenGodexplainedittoJob,that'swhatJobsaid,"OKGod,you'rebig,Iamsmall. It'syourdecision. Ifyoufeelgoodbeatinguponme,bemyguest. There'snothingIcandoaboutitanyway." AndGodsaid,"Timeout. Notgoodenough. Let'sgobackoveritagain." Sohetookabouttwomorechaptersandreviewedthesamebasicmaterial. Basicallywhathesaidtohimwas,Iwillnotacceptarelationshipbasedonresignation. DoyoudefendmyrighttodowhatIwantto,Job,todowithyouwhatIwant,exactly,noquestionsasked?" AndJobsaid,"Yeah,nolongerresignation,butsubmission. Yes,yesGod."
LEE-Wecanallsitaroundthetableandargueaboutit,butnoneofusknow. It'ssomethingthathappenedbeforewewereborn,andyetwethinkit'sunjustthatImightormightnothavebeenelected,becauseIjustdon'tthinkit'sfairthatGoddoesn'tloveeverybody.
WALT-TosaythatGoddidn'telecteverybodyisnottosaythathedidn'tlovethemall. Myfriend,againIsaytoyouthatbeingcreatedbyGoddoesnotobligateGod. Youdonotcarryintotherelationshipanyrights. Youareentitledtonothing. Nowgentlemen,ifyoucannotswallowthat,youwillneverhaveasatisfactoryrelationshipwithGod.
PARTIALITY
VICTOR-IsitOKtosayGodhavemercyontheIsraelites,butitwillbehardontheonesthatarenotelected...... IfGodshowsthiskindofpartiality...... whetherhecouldbeagoodjudgewhenheisdoingtherewards,becausewesay thelawoftheharvest...... ifheshowsthiskindofpartiality,thencanItrustthatGodwillexercisejustice? AndalsocanItrustthathereallylovesme? It'sOKtoasktheonesthatgotelected,butfortheunelected...... theywillspendeternityinhell. ArewechargingGodwithbeingunfairasajudge?
WALT-Let'ssaythatyoulivedduringthedaysofourLord'sministry. Let'ssayfurtherthatyouwereawarethathewasselectingtwelvetoworkwithhim. Andlet'ssaythatyouvery,verymuchwantedtobeoneofthetwelve. Let'ssayhelookedyouintheeyeandsaid"no". Wouldyoucometothesameconclusion...... clearpartiality?
JOSEPH-There'sabigdifference,one'sinheaven,one'sinhell.
WALT-Ah,yousee,youareassumingthathelliswhatGodmakesofit. AndI'msuggestingtoyouthathelliswhatyoumakeofit. SoIwouldsaythatthedifferencedoesnotexist. Theonlyquestionis,doeshehavetherighttoshowpartiality,withoutlosingyourtrust? Jesussaid,"We'renotgoingtohaveroomforthirteen. No,gohome."
VICTOR-Godcanstillleaveemptyroomsinheaven?
WALT-Correct.
RICHARD-Ithinkifwehaveadefinitionof"creature". Thecreatureisslavetohiscreator,theLord.
WALT-Right. WhatPangissuggestingthough,ifI'mnotoneoftheelect,thenI'vegotreasontoresentGod.
RICHARD-ButassumingGodnevermakesamistake. "ThoughyouslaymeIwillstillservethee." Whatdoesthatmean?
WALT-WellIthinkPangwouldsay,"That'sallwellandgood,butI'mstillnotoneoftheelect.."
STUDENT-Ithinklikeinthissituation,Imean,atleastyouhaveasecondchance. Idon'tevenhavetosuffer,andImaycomethrougharesurrection. Beingelectedorunelectedisahugedifferencethanbeingadiscipleratherthanjustbeinganormanlbeliever.
WALT-Theonlysufferingthenon-electwilldoistheproductoftheirownsin. It'snottheproductofelection Godistotallyimpartialinthatregard.
RICHARD-WhenwegetatruefocusofGod,asJobsaid,"NowI'veseenyou."
JOSEPH-Arewecrossingwireswiththelawoftheharvestandelectionsomewhere?
WALT-Yes,that'swhatI'msuggestingtoyou.
JOSEPH-Whatdoeshemeanbythelastwordinverse13?
WALT-Ihavenoidea.
BART-Doesn'tsoundgood.
ROMANS9,page5 72
WALT-Agreed.
APPARENTCONTRADICTIONS
THOMAS-Howdowecompromisewithotherverses,as1Tim2:4,"Whowillhaveallmentobesaved,andcometotheknowledgeofthetruth."? AndotherverseslikeJohn3:16-18? Howcanhenon-electsome,whenhewilledthatallbesaved?
WALT-Thomas,theBibleclearlycontradictsitselfinthisregard,asitalsodoesinotherissuesaswell. 1+1+1=1. Andsothisiswhereitbecomesuniquelyoffensive,becauseitoffendsourmoralsensibility. (alittlematerialmissedatthispoint). Whenwegettothedoctrine,Iseehumongousimplications,thereforeIwantresolution,butchapter10doesnotfitwellwithchapter9. "WhoevercallsuponthenameoftheLordshallbesaved." Or,again,thepassagewereferredtobefore,whereJesussays,"OhJerusalem,Jerusalem,howIwouldhavegatheredyoutomyselfasahengathersherchicks,butyewouldnot." ThereisthesovereignGodhavinghiswillthwartedbymen. HowdoIunderstandit? Idon't,andIamsuggestingtoyou,gentlemen,thattothedegreethatyouunderstandit,youknowyou'rewrong. Ifyoucanputittogetherinyourhead,youcanknowyouhavenotunderstoodtheissue. NeverthelessPaulsays,"beforetheywereborn,beforetheycoulddoanygoodorevil,thatthepurposeofGodaccordingtoelectionmightstand,notofworks,butofhimwhocalls,asitwassaiduntoher,theeldershallservetheyounger. Asitiswritten,JacobhaveIloved,EsauhaveIhated."
THEABSENCEOFOPTIONS
STUDENT-Now,Walt,supposewecouldlookatwhat'sgoingoninJob'smind. Whenhesaidthefirsttime,Iresign. AndGodsaidthat'sunacceptable,let'srepeatthesamething. WhatisgoingoninJob'smindthathecangofromresignationtosubmission,andGodacceptedit?
WALT-AllIcandoisguess. I'lltellyouwhatIthink,butIcan'tbesureIamright. Pang,Ithinkthatinthefinalanalysis,myeager,willfulsubmissiontoGodistheproductoftheabsenceofoptions. Gentlemen,we'vetalkedaboutthisbefore,butIdonotthinkitwasaccidentalthatGodgavethelawinthedesert. Thedesertisvoidoflife,barren,nonourishment. IserveJesusnotbecausehe'sthebestofsixoptions. IserveJesusbecausehe'stheonlyoption. Nothingelsemakessense. LikethedisciplessaidinJohn6,"Towhomcanwego." Ifit'stoughtofollowyou,anditistough,whatisplanB?
STUDENT-WhenIdiscussthisissue,orsomeoneraisesthisissuewithme,myfavoriteverseisJohn6:37,"AllthattheFathergivestomewillcometome,andwhoevercomestomeIwillnevercastout." Don'tworryaboutwherehe'stakingyou,justcometoJesus. Ifyoucomehewillnotdriveyouaway. Ireallycannotexplainthiselection. Electionisveryreassuringtothosewhoarein. Youenterheavenandthenlookbackandseethatyournameisthere,andit'sreassuring. Butwecanneverexplaintoapersonwithwhomwearesharingthegospelthiselectionthing. Idon'tthinkwecanevergivehimasatisfactoryexplanation.
WALT-Right. AllPaulteachesusisthatithasnothingtodowithfairness,nothingtodowithjustice.
STUDENT-AndalsoitdoesnotinanywaycontradictGod'snature.
STUDENT-ItalsogivesusanotherwaytototallysubmittoGod. Ifyoutrytoreasonitout,youcan't. He'sbig,we'resmall. Youcannevertalktoanunbelieveraboutthis. It'slikewhenIaskedthisquestiontwoorthreeyearsago...... ifheselectedmeordidn'tselectme,Ihavenochoiceanyway,sowhysouldI...... It'svery,verydifficulttosharewithanunbeliever. Bestjustnottotalkaboutituntilhebecomesabeliever,thenhewillunderstand.
LEE-Youknow,it'skindathatNoah'sarkconcept. Whenhewasbuildingitheknewitwasn'tbigenoughtoputallthepeoplein,andheknewthathisfamilywasgoingtosurvive,andallthoseotherpeoplearenotgoingtogetintheboatwithyou. Youkeepbuildingit. Don'tworryaboutit. Theboat'sjusttherightsizefortheeightfolkstogetin.
WALT-Yeah.
LEE-Ithadtohavebeenhardbuildingthatboat,knowingallthosefolkscan'tgetintheboatwithyou.
THESECONDOBJECTION(VERSES19-24)
WALT-Goodpoint...... Gentlemen,let'sgotothenextsection,becauseitdoesn'tgetanyeasier. Verse19,"Whydoeshefindfault,forwhocanresisthiswill?" Howdoesheanswerit? Whatheissayingisthatfaultisamoralissue,andagainelectionhasnothingtodowithmorality. Youarenothingmorethanapieceofclay,andifGodwantstomakeofyouonekindofavessel,oranotherkindofvessel,that'shisperogative. Ithasnothingtodowithfault.
RICHARD-Howdochapters9-11helpourchristiangrowthorwalkwithGod?
WALT-Well,goodquestion,Richard. Capters9-11areaunitdealingwiththenationofIsrael,andhebeginswiththedoctrineofelectiontoshowthattheelectionofGod,ofthenationofIsrael,doesnotobligateGodregardinganyparticularindivdualinIsrael. HewillgoontodevelopwhatGod'sthinkingisregardingthenationofIsrael. Butunderstandthatitisanelectionprocess. Now,howelectiontouchesuswe'vetalkedaboutagreatdeal. Itbecomesvery,veryimportantinunderstandingalotofthings. Certainlyitrobs
ROMANS9,page6 73
manofhispride. Mostheresyisrootedinpride. Whenyougetfinishedwithchapter9,yourealizethatyoudonotbringtotherelationshipanything!.
JOSEPH-ThosewhoarenotelectbyGoddonotknowifthey'reselecteduntiltheydie.
WALT-Butagain,becauseallthinkingpeopleknowtheyaretheproductofelectionofsomekind. Theyareawarethattheprocessisgoingon. Theyjustdon'tunderstandit. Thepoet,thephilosopher,thesongwriter,theplaywriter,alldealwiththisissue-theseemingpurposelessnessofexistence.
BART-Theonlywaytherecouldbemercyisifhepreparessomefordestruction?
WALT-No...... mercyimplies...... ifyoudon'tscrewup,youwon'tneedthemercyofGod.
BART-Butyousaidmercyimpliesselection. IfIselectsomeforheaven,that'smercy,andtheonlywayIcandothatwithoutselectingeverybodyisselecttheothers,verse22says,fordestruction.
WALT-Thedestructionthattheyexperienceisnottheproductofelection,itistheproductofsin. Now,Bart,theargumenthe'smakinghereisthatsinisnotanissueintheelectiveprocess. Beforetheywereborn,beforetheycoulddoanygoodorevil,thatthepurposeofGodaccordingtoelectionmightstand. JacobdidnotgotoheavenbecausehewasanicerguythanEsau.
LEE-Doesthisgobacktowhenyouweretalkingaboutyourprayerforyourchildren,youareprayingtoGod,"Pleaseletmebethefatherofelectedchildrenandthegrandfatherofelectedgrandchildren,givemethatprivilege"?
WALT-Yes,yes,yes. He'snotobligated. ButIpleadwithhim
VICTOR-Goingbacktowhatwetalkedabouthere,whydidPaulstillhavethisfeelingfromverses1-5?
WALT-Foramantocontemplategoingintoeternityfacingtheconsequencesofhisownsinandunbelief,withoutthehopeofChrist,isalmosttoomuchtobear.
VICTOR-Especiallyifheissoclosetothem-theJews.
WALT-Goodpoint
STUDENT-Butit'snotbychoice,it'stheelectionprocessgoingon.
WALT-Butitistheirchoice.
STUDENT-Yes,inchapter10itistheirchoice. It'ssonear,soclose. Ifyouwanttobe,justsayinyourmouthandbelieveinyourheart. It'ssoavailable. IthinkPaulisfrustrated.
WALT-Ithinksotoo,Victor. Theyhadspecialrevelationrightattheirdoor. AndthenhelooksattheGentiles,sofar,faraway,andtheygotit!
STUDENT-Verses1-5iswhereheisbanginghishead......
VERSES25-33
WALT-Iagree. OK,let'stakethelastparagraph,verses25-33. Now,inverses25and26,hesaysGodincludestheGentile. Andinverses27-29,hesaysIsrael'sproblemismoral,Pangsaidjustamomentago. TheproblemwithIsraelistheirunbelief. Andtheninverses30-33hesaysthatfaithisanindispensableingredientinyourrelationshipwithGod. Nownoticethat25and26areoldtestamentquotes. FromwhatbookintheBibleishequoting?
STUDENT-Hosea.
WALT-Hosea. NowisitinaccordancewiththecontextofHosea,oroutofcontext? Ortosayitanotherway,isthepointthatPaulmakesinverses25-26thesamepointHoseaistryingtomakeinHoseachapters1and2? Didyouaskyourselfthatquestionwhenyoustudiedthis? Lee,youareaDallasgraduate.
LEE-DidIaskmyselfthatquestion? Hoseaisknownbecausehehastogoafterthisprostitute,andinspiteofeverythingshedoes. She'sunfaithful-aslut,andHoseaisrequiredtopursueher.
WALT-SoIsraelisthefaithlesswhore. Isthatthepointhe'smakinginthesetwoverses?
LEE-Ithinkso.
WALT-SowhenHoseasays,"Intheplacewhereitissaidyouarenotmypeople,thereinshallbecalledthechildrenofthelivingGod",Hoseaisreferringtowhom?
STUDENT-Israel.
WALT-Israel. AndwhoisPaulreferringto? TheGentiles. SoobviouslyPaulisusingitdifferentlyfromhowHoseawasusingit. Hosea'scontextwasIsrael. Paul'scontextistheGentiles. Nowin27-29hequotesfromIsaiah,obviouslybecausehesaidit. Inthispassageishetruetothecontext? Silence...... Wellwhatisthepointhe'smaking?
BART-SodomandGomorrahareexamplesofourdepravityandonlybyelectioncanwebesaved.
WALT-OK. NowishetalkingabouttheGentile,theJew,orboth?
BART-Iwouldsayboth.
WALT-Wouldyoumenagree?
LEE-SeemstoleantowardtheJews.
WALT-Yeah,I'dliketosuggestthatitisincontext,andhe'snotdoingviolencetothetextofIsaiah,ashedidwithHosea,and
ROMANS9,page7 74
itdoesrefertotheJews. AndthefactthatonlyaremnantoutofIsraelissavedlet'syouknowthatGod'scommittmenttothenationdoesnotguaranteetheindividualanything. Theindividualhasgottobesavedthesamewaythenationis-byelection. Inverses30-33,weseethatfaithisanindespensableingredienttotherelationshipwithGod. And,Pang,youeloquentlyexpressedthefrustrationofPaulinthispassage,whenyoucommentedonitjustafewminutesago. GodmajoredonthenationofIsrael,andthepeoplemissedit. AndthepeoplethatGodignoresjustdon'tmakeit...... Well,gentlemen,Iamreadytodrawthe9thchaptertoacloseifyouare.
LEE-Onemorequestion. Backinverse20,atthatpointisPaulchallengingus,"HowdareyouquestionGod?" Isthatalmostlikeanexclamationpoint? Howdareyou,orhowcanyouconsiderthat? Isthatthetoneheistaking? Tocounselthemtobecarefulwhatthey'redoing?
WALT-Wellrememberthatthat'sthesamethingGodsaidtoJob,"Whatintheworldareyoudoing?" IcreatedLeviathan. Youfearhim. Youfearmycreature,butyoudon'tfearme. Job,you'renotthinkingstraight."
BART-Walt,yousaidPelagiusreinterpreted chapters5,6,7and8. Whatdidhedowhenhegotto9?
WALT-Hesaidthatelectionhastodowiththenationonlyandnottheindividual. Butifthatisthecase,thentheargumentofverses14-19wouldbeunnecessary. Theanticipationoftheobjectionletsyouknowthat'sit'smorethanjustthenation.
BART-HasMethodismmaintainedhisposition?
WALT-Yeah. PangandThomasarebothMethodists.
PANG-Idon'tknow. ThereisnoonesinglevoiceinMethodism.
LEE-IwasaMethodistfor10years,andIcantellyouthatconversationslikethisareavoidedliketheplague. Youcan'tpinsomeonetohavethisconversationbecauseit'sconfrontational,andunlessyoucanfindabookwrittenbysomeonedoyoureallyknowwhattheMethodistchurchbelieves. I'mnotpickingagainsttheMethodistchurchbecauseIhavegreatfriendsandallthisotherkindofstuff. Butyoucan'tpinthem. Youcan'tengageinthatconversation. Andthatwaspartofmystrugglefor10yearsasanadult. Icouldn'tengage. ButIknowit'swrittendownsomewhere. I'msureyoucouldfindit. (breakforlunch).