Alert: Welcome to the Derech HaShem Study Room Group YehoshuaBA.
luminous_spirit: lol Isibel
SHeMABruce: i couldn't help myself. I've gotten SOOO frustrated lately
BCWoman61: the teacher has to be the boss
Taz_Aharon: i have too bruce
eliana batyah: this room has helped me a lot
luminous_spirit: seems to be alotta people in the frustrated boat lately
luminous_spirit: lol
Lady4Yeshua: lol lum
Taz_Aharon: i never get angry at HaShem, but I have been frustrated recently inded
Taz_Aharon: lol
SHeMABruce: it is impossible to have an impassionate passionate faith
YehoshuaBA: y
luminous_spirit: amein Bruce
SHeMABruce: true faith is passionate
Taz_Aharon: wha bruce?
Taz_Aharon: lol
A D A M_3: where are we starting at please?
BCWoman61: page 125 in my book Adam
A D A M_3: ty
judith_64: i'll open
Taz_Aharon:
A D A M_3: in my book to bc
BCWoman61: review beginning on page 121
LevEchad: ty BCW
BCWoman61: np Lev
SHeMABruce: In my opinion, this is the most important section in the book
SHeMABruce: me too
Taz_Aharon: is ramchal only saying jews are bound togather or ALL PEOPLE?
SHeMABruce: ALL
luminous_spirit: i would say all
SHeMABruce: "jew" is a term referring to a child of God.
Ben_Ami_1: im new to the room but what book are you reading from and can i get it ..sorry to disrupt
SHeMABruce: you can get it from Amazon.com or from the link shown in the room banner at the top
luminous_spirit: where is Isibel's right hand man? lol where's Behanu tonight?
A D A M_3: im holding out..... don't think its ALL.... as all in conclusive.... think there is something missing in this.
SHeMABruce: Book is "The Way of God," by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto
Taz_Aharon: i think ramchal was only speaking about physical jews being one
Taz_Aharon: just my opinion though
BCWoman61: are there new people who may not have the book? Should I get a tiny url for the google books scan?
Ben_Ami_1: ty bruce
luminous_spirit: i actually have my own "visual" of what Isibel looks like sitting there explaining and sharing all this ( i can just see the wheels and cogs spinning and the arms flailing) hahaha
BCWoman61: good evening granny
SHeMABruce: and perhaps yosef
SHeMABruce: yosef was a tzaddik who sufferred for israel
luminous_spirit: hey torah
SHeMABruce: note..."help NECESSARY..."
torah1st: shalom achoti luminous
BCWoman61: google books scan of Derech hashem (warning some pages are missing)
torah1st: i was in a room with magilla and some others that was incredible
torah1st: i didnt sound like a nutcase there. hehehe
A D A M_3: torah....lets stay on topic please
torah1st: sorry
BCWoman61: from where is Isibel reading please?
A D A M_3: bottem pg 123
A D A M_3: doing a review
SHeMABruce: reviewing THE most important section in the book....
Ben_Ami_1: sorry guys gotta go 2.15 am here
Strider_100: shalom Ben
SHeMABruce: g'night.
sharonah: shalom ben
sherryr: Shalom Ben
luminous_spirit: shalom Ben
Strider_100: BCW ... Isibel is reading from Derech Hashem
Alex_Bartov: hey Strider voos machstu ?
BCWoman61: Strider, yes which page. I got lost when I went to go get the google books link
SHeMABruce: 125
Strider_100: gud
SHeMABruce: top of page 125
BCWoman61: ta Strider
BCWoman61: oops Bruce
eliana batyah: 123 in my book
judith_64: sufferings can be for tikkun of sins and for elevation of the self
A D A M_3: first paragraph of 125
David_42:
SHeMABruce: tzaddik has "will to receive FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS instead of for themselves."
A D A M_3: isibel... any application of this principle?
SHeMABruce: adam: yeshua
A D A M_3: only one??
SHeMABruce: no
BCWoman61: Isibel, is that why the zohar teaches that the death of a tzadik can bring others to teshuvaah?
SHeMABruce: but he's the most profound example
SHeMABruce: there are LEVELS of tzaddik
SHeMABruce: the higher the level, the more profound the effect
BCWoman61: so perhaps being in the presence of a tzadik might negate some of the pollution from the rest of the world?
A D A M_3: negate...... perhaps to push back from one...... this pollution of the world on us.
SHeMABruce: if that presence causes one to emulate that tzaddik (imho)
BCWoman61: I am just thinking of Rabbi Amnon Yitzak, Isibel, and the reported miracles he achieves bringing people back to a more observant way of life.
BCWoman61: I find it interesting that Rav Kaplan says that "if we deserve it" the moshiach maybe ushered in with miracles
judith_64: each generation has a potential meshiach
Isibel: Yes
BCWoman61: but that if we don't the moshiach will come in the way of a normal man
BCWoman61: sorry if I have caused distraction Isibel
A D A M_3: bc..... i like your thoughts... thanks
judith_64: the will to receive starts with working on refining the self
Isibel: no
Isibel: not at all BC
judith_64: the will to receive in order to give
BCWoman61: I am intrigued by the miracles of those like Rav Yitzak in comparison to what we see in christianity.
BCWoman61: ok Adam, I just don't want to interrupt Isibel
judith_64: the level of complete nullification of the ego has to be approached very cautiously
judith_64: we are commanded to chose life after all
BCWoman61: but some are born a tzadik and others become one through adversity and maturity?
BCWoman61: true judith, and it shouldn't mean lack of participation
SHeMABruce: yes
judith_64: remember Nadav and Avihu that were consumed
judith_64: it's dangereous
A D A M_3: bc...... comming in the way of a normal man...... i fine interesting
A D A M_3: 2
A D A M_3: sound?
BCWoman61: a tzadik should demonstrate to us how all will worship hashem
A D A M_3: 1
BCWoman61: yes Adam, Isibel has the mic
Lady4Yeshua: Shalom Rael
A D A M_3: ty
Lady4Yeshua: he he he
A D A M_3: are we including self inflected suffering?
judith_64: Moshe didn't deny living
BCWoman61: self-inflected Adam?
BCWoman61: I seem to remember he even wrote a lovely song of rejoicing judith
A D A M_3: some like to whip themselves for their sins......
judith_64: we are here to live and elevate the self and our relationship with G_D and people
BCWoman61: ah well, self-castigation doesn't seem to be demonstrated in torah
renkablue: are some of these ideas incorporated into the budhist philosophy?
SHeMABruce: "desire to receive for benefit of mankind...." = tzaddik. literally SERVING mankind as a "suffering servant" to allow tzaddik's merit to be applied to others.
judith_64: Yes BCWoman : )
judith_64: i have a call,,,sorry,bbl
Rael13: Shalom everyone
BCWoman61: k judith see you soon
A D A M_3: bc..... agree
BCWoman61: so, Isibel, we can be assured that mankind will not be permitted to blow itself up with nuclears?
A D A M_3: where is this woman reading now?
eliana batyah: pg 125
A D A M_3: t
luminous_spirit: this woman? lol
BCWoman61: I believe she is about to begin the second paragraph on page 127 which introduces gilgul
BCWoman61: there is a prophesy which seems to indicate a portion of palestine will be given over to nuclear waste.
BCWoman61: but nothing to indicate the whole world
eliana batyah: my book must be different i am on 125
A D A M_3: top 127...... the soul is......
SHeMABruce: Wish we did.
SHeMABruce: have moshe
BCWoman61: section 10 Eliana?
BCWoman61: yes that's what I thought Adam, when she said we were getting in to an interesting topic
eliana batyah: right pg 125 in my book lol
A D A M_3: we will see......
KosherSue: In Inner Space book, it said that the prophets excelled during the temple era, while the ark of the covenant was present and the teachings were available.
A D A M_3: yes kosher..... and it stopped when the ark was hidden
luminous_spirit: interesting Sue.. i want to get that book
SHeMABruce: darkness is now too great
luminous_spirit: lol
BCWoman61: but prophesy says hashem will pour out his spirit again
A D A M_3: where ...... isibel
A D A M_3: thaanks
BCWoman61: "sons and daughters will prophesy"
BCWoman61: yes, exhortation not foreseeing so much
A D A M_3: hope olde men too
BCWoman61: Adam, I think old men qualify as sons too
luminous_spirit: lol BC
A D A M_3: lol
A D A M_3: k\
BCWoman61: regardless of how old you are Adam, you are still a son of hashem
A D A M_3: thank you bc for your insight
KosherSue: exactly!!!!!
KosherSue: They overlook the obvious!
A D A M_3: what constituts 'the good' ?
sherryr: the elephant in the living room
A D A M_3: bruce....lets take one step at a time
SHeMABruce: yes sherry
SHeMABruce: take it or leave it
SHeMABruce: but listen to it
BCWoman61: so we should hold comments until she breaks for questions
A D A M_3: please...... any application of this practice?
BCWoman61: yes Adam, an aborted baby
whiteraven007: this is the oppinion of the rebbinum its not in Torah
BCWoman61: the baby has not had a chance to achieve it's mission because of the evil or necessary choice of it's mother
A D A M_3: ibc..i have seen it of the spirit...... not of the soul...... which is lower......
A D A M_3: perhaps i need to look more?
Rael13: very accurate
BCWoman61: Adam, for me it makes hashem a whole lot less vindictive with regard to the people who were in the land before he gave it to Israel
BCWoman61: I don't have to tapdance to explain that his justice was perfect since he gave them 400 years of chances
A D A M_3: bc...... but their sin had become FULL......
A D A M_3: how do we understand
A D A M_3: gull
A D A M_3: full*
BCWoman61: yes Adam but he gave them the chance to choose differently for 400 years and to find their missions
SHeMABruce: remember, this gilgul/reincarnation idea is a CONCEPT. No one is suggesting it is necessary to accept it. It is simply a concept worthy of discussion. No indoctrination going on here.
janice64: for those christians who believe john the baptist was elijah it would be an example of reincarnation
BCWoman61: Adam, like pharoah, their choice to indulge the yetzer hara had become so great that there was no room for reclamation
A D A M_3: i fine it interesting...... something to think on
BCWoman61: yes janice
janice64: hey bcwoman
BCWoman61: or as it is written that moshiach will be literally David
A D A M_3: janice..it was the spirit...... not the soul
BCWoman61: Adam, and yet according to the NT, Y'shua said "for those who have ears to hear, Yochanan IS Eliyahu:
BCWoman61: not the spirit of Eliyahu
Lady4Yeshua: What if all aborted baby's come back as murders?
A D A M_3: it was said...... he was with...... not 'is'
BCWoman61: Lady, then they would not achieve their mission
BCWoman61: and further damage their neshama but would still have a chance at another cycle
Rael13: It depends who they murder
BCWoman61: well Adam, on this issue, we would disagree.
iguana_8: doing this again is not my idea of blessing
luminous_spirit: i think it should be a prerequisite to learn hebrew before taking this class .. sheesh
Lady4Yeshua: lol
SHeMABruce: Also, Hashem chooses how to place them BACK into this world.
A D A M_3: ok bc
BCWoman61: iguana, then be sure you have achieved your mission
whiteraven007: bcw this is an interesting commontary of rebbinic oppinions of judaism on the other hand each kohan is responcible for their own defilements just as each levite is responcible the the charges they touch its not negociable nor transferable
iguana_8: and those who suffer, especially, should not have to do it again and have no way to achieve a mission
BCWoman61: Bruce, it is important to try to understand that eastern concepts of reincarnation is a perversion of gilgul though
Lady4Yeshua: This room is a study..... not a church meeting..lol
BCWoman61: iguana, all suffer
SHeMABruce: 2
Isibel: 2
KosherSue: it's confusing to me--what about the resurrection? What body do they get?t
iguana_8: not equally
SHeMABruce: no sound
BCWoman61: Lady, well even in a meeting one should use one's brain and studying for one's self.
SHeMABruce: 1
Isibel: 1
KosherSue: 1
SHeMABruce: haha
BCWoman61: Sue, why would it be one of the previous ones, why not a "new" one
Lady4Yeshua: that is why i don't go to church meetings BC
janice64: lol bcwoman
SHeMABruce: Revelation mentions the "spirit of prophecy."
KosherSue: good point--
BCWoman61: Lady, it's one of those things that is often missing in the modern church
SHeMABruce: adventists jump all over that verse in revelation
Lady4Yeshua: I agree!!!!!! Throw out brain and walk blindly
BCWoman61: oral tradition in the church has become paramount to actually reading the tanakh
SHeMABruce: difficult
BCWoman61: which book is that Isibel, please?
BCWoman61: hello awl
SHeMABruce: just an "FYI" kinda thing for now
Lady4Yeshua: Hindu's believe in Many gods
Lady4Yeshua: that is the big differfance
Lady4Yeshua: differnace*
BCWoman61: hinduism believes reincarnation is a punishment - that's the primary difference
iguana_8: isibel do you know where on chabad
BCWoman61: if you did it right in hinudism you go to nirvana
archangel_michael777: afk
BCWoman61: k archie
Lady4Yeshua: it could be a punishment
Lady4Yeshua: who wants to return to hell?
SHeMABruce: simpletorememeber.com may have info about it also.
Rael13: krishna krishna hare hare
SHeMABruce: simpletoremember
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Lady4Yeshua: lol
BCWoman61: why not sitar is nice - lol
Rael13: George rules!!!!
iguana_8: i've listened to all simpletoremember i dont remember anything
SHeMABruce: never like beetles
whiteraven007: isibel yes the curses and blessings
sweetpea_0988: are u all jews?
BCWoman61: me either iguana
SHeMABruce: no
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Lady4Yeshua: not all
Lady4Yeshua: lol sweetpea
janice64: if i understand judaisms perception of reincarnation it is to fulfill their mission in life not for punishment
sweetpea_0988: oh ok
sweetpea_0988: just asking
A D A M_3: just us good one
Lady4Yeshua: welcome
BCWoman61: sweetpea, this is a study of the Ramchal's book Derech Hashem, the Way of G-d. Here's a scan of the book, if you would like to look
A D A M_3: ones*
Lady4Yeshua: good answer adam
Lady4Yeshua: kik
SHeMABruce: "The Way of God," by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Lady4Yeshua: olo
Lady4Yeshua: lo
Lady4Yeshua: lo
Lady4Yeshua: luaging
sweetpea_0988: do you agree Yeshua is Lord?
Rael13: Isibel this very interesting being Jewish it reminds me of how the Rabbis taught me many moons ago
BCWoman61: we are reading from Section II Ch 3 section 10
Lady4Yeshua: who?
Lady4Yeshua: who?
A D A M_3: sweetpea lets stick to the topic
Lady4Yeshua: what
olivesnr: isible why is punishment and reward was created?
SHeMABruce: many here believe Yeshua is Messiah. some don't. that's not the issue tonight
iguana_8: isibel do you know where it is on chabad?
sweetpea_0988: oh i didnt know it was a lesson, sorry
sweetpea_0988: ty for the link BC ill follow along
Lady4Yeshua: you can stay
Lady4Yeshua:
luminous_spirit: olivesnr? is that you? olivetree?
sweetpea_0988:
olivesnr: yes luminous
BCWoman61: np sweetpear
BCWoman61: pea - sorry
BCWoman61: iguana here is one
SHeMABruce: God gives us challenges.
Lady4Yeshua: he sure does
BCWoman61: from From Rabbi Yitzchak Luria on chabad.org
SHeMABruce: Part of our reason for being is the take up the challenge specific to us given by God
luminous_spirit: welll gooooooood olive .. here i was thinking " i wish olive was here.. i feel MORE lost than usual without her" lol
iguana_8: ty bc
BCWoman61: np iguana
Lady4Yeshua: I am sleepy
olivesnr: lol lumious
BCWoman61: I am sure there are more, but perhaps check in the kabbalah online section of chabad.org
SHeMABruce: "yetzer hara" = evil inclination = sinful nature
olivesnr: many poeple like to judge without knowing much about the heart of perosn
luminous_spirit: i agree olive
BCWoman61: hello Lily
SHeMABruce: or even with 50% certainty
Lily of the Valley: hi BC hi all
SHeMABruce: "Highest Wisdom" = God
BCWoman61: as the Rambam said we should always assume people are good and give them the benefit of the doubt, but not leave ourselves looking foolish. Like him giving a room to a known thief, but removing the ladder at night so the thief could not get out into the rest of the house
Rael13: Lady is making me sleepy
Lady4Yeshua: shut up
BCWoman61: so move chairs Rael - lol
Lady4Yeshua: lol
SHeMABruce: Do you have a specfic "weakness" that seems difficult to overcome? Could be THAT is the challenge God has put you here to resolve.
A D A M_3: GOD may bump you off? where does this woman live?
Lady4Yeshua: we are on laptops in bed
Lady4Yeshua: lol
BCWoman61: lol Adam, idiomatic expression makes the lesson interesting
Rael13: werw next to each other
Lady4Yeshua: yeah.. to close get away
Lady4Yeshua: lol
BCWoman61: Personally I think she spends too much time playing mafia wars on facebook
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Lady4Yeshua: mafia wars?
BCWoman61: Lady, facebook application
Lady4Yeshua: ohhhh ok
luminous_spirit: i get invites to that all the time.. very annoying
luminous_spirit: lol
A D A M_3: soloman was blessed because of his father, david
Rael13: me too
Lady4Yeshua: not from me
Lady4Yeshua: lol
BCWoman61: in all fairness I have no idea if Isibel plays it, it was just a joke.
Lady4Yeshua: i want a ginger ale
olivesnr: what is functioning as whole means?
SHeMABruce: For the sake of others trying to pay attention and courtesy to speaker, please limit text to items applicable to the discussion.
Rael13: There are none left
Lady4Yeshua: is that kosher? ginger ale]
BCWoman61: sorry Bruce
iguana_8: yes please dont distract
Rael13: There is a cranberry mist
Lady4Yeshua: i gotta shut up...right bruce
Lady4Yeshua: lol
A D A M_3: yeap...lady
Lady4Yeshua: grrrrrrr have not been on in forever.... now i gotta shut up
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Lady4Yeshua: np
Rael13: she always talks to much
Lady4Yeshua:
Rael13: I love chess
Lady4Yeshua: shut up rael or your gonna get dotted
Lady4Yeshua: lol
Rael13: I am quite good
BCWoman61: he has given his angels charge over you ... does that indicate we will be guided based on the "Grand Master's
Lady4Yeshua: type about topic!
Rael13: or at least I used to be
BCWoman61: desire for our mission?
BCWoman61: sorry accidentally hit the return instead of the quotation
olivesnr: isible i have q
luminous_spirit: Grand Masters?
BCWoman61: luminous, just using Isibel's reference of a grandmaster chess player
Lady4Yeshua: poor cow
luminous_spirit: oh
luminous_spirit: ok BC
Rael13: at least hes kosher
BCWoman61: my mother's grandparents had tickets on the titanic (we have the tickets) but great-grandmother fell sick and they had to miss the boat. Personally that's an example of a bad being used for good.
Rael13: Thats what I call missin the boat!!
Lady4Yeshua: ROFL
iguana_8: just like all the people that missed 9/11
BCWoman61: Rael, b"h
SHeMABruce: Baal Shem Tov
BCWoman61: wb sweetpea
SHeMABruce: Biblical example: Joseph
SHeMABruce: sold into slavery for the good of israel
sweetpea_0988: ty bc
sweetpea_0988: my computer crashed
Lady4Yeshua: He blesses the righteous and the unrighteous
Moe435: Hey LadyYoshua!
BCWoman61: teshuvaah
Moe435: Shalom!
Lady4Yeshua: is this like a Job illistratioun
Lady4Yeshua: shalom Moe
Isibel: yes
SHeMABruce: that is what allows a tzaddik's merit to be applied to us
A D A M_3: no man is an island...... ok
SHeMABruce: recall how the sin of a single israelite affected all israel
Lady4Yeshua: Well what about poor Job
Lady4Yeshua: what did he do?
olivesnr: how can me as indiveual effect my slef isible?
olivesnr: can u pls expalin more?
BCWoman61: Isibel, does that relate directly to the idea that all Israel has a shared neshama and the action of one affects the "soul" of all Israel?
SHeMABruce: "forces" ... on the level of beriyah?
BCWoman61: Lady, he was an object lesson. Good chance Iyov was not a real person.
A D A M_3: hey.....im not ready for that idea...... isibel......
BCWoman61: oh oh Adam, then I guess you will be back again
A D A M_3: lol..... again and again
BCWoman61: olive, can you ask your question on the mic maybe?
olivesnr: i cant
Isibel: I saw your question Olive
olivesnr: ok ty