AUGUST 2, 2005 BUSINESS MEETING MINUTES Los Angeles Model Railroad Society

MINUTES OF THE SEPTEMBER 6, 2005 LAMRS BUSINESS MEETING

sm 9/10/05

Lloyd Lehrer called the meeting to order at7:30PM

ATTENDEES:

Lloyd LehrerDavid HolmesDerek GriffinJim Bright

Steve MenkerMike HaasisL.A. Roe Bill Limburg

Adam MirandaFred Pausch Gordon JeansMichael Collins

Andy HunterNick BaroneBob SantelliRichard Allmon

Allen StoreyAl MunsonMike CartabianoMichael Bloom

Jon TotenAaron Gibson

The reading of the August meeting minutes was dispensed with.

TREASURER’S REPORT by David Holmes

As of 9/5/05, our total assets are $41,606 and July’s net income was a loss of $(200.80). Dave noted:

1ST VP REPORT by Derek Griffin – No report

  • Superintendent of Construction Standard Gage by Fred Pausch – No report
  • Superintendent of Construction Narrow Gage by Nick Barone – No report

2ND VP REPORT by Jim Bright

  • Tuesday September 13 will be dedicated to testing and certifying trains for the open house.
  • There is a possible operations session one week from Saturday.

Committee reports:

RULES-Andy Hunter – No report.

MEMBERSHIP-Nick Barone – No report.

ELECTRICAL-Bill Limburg/Allen Storey - No report

OPENHOUSE CHAIR–Bob Santelli

  • Dick Allmon will display his trains in the wooden display case.
  • A sign-up sheet for train operation at the open house is posted on the bulletin board.
  • L.A. Roe received several baked-goods pledges from members. Home-made vs. store preferred.

BUILDING CHAIR–Position OPEN – No report

WEBMASTER-Jim Bright – No report.

LIBRARIAN - Jim Ryan – No report.

FUNDRAISING CHAIR - Donn SholtyAl Munson – No report.

CLUB ROLLING STOCK INVENTORY COMMITTEE-LA Roe- No report

SODA CHAIR – Dick Allmon – No report.

APPLICATIONS FOR MEMBERSHIP OR UPGRADE

______

Motion to approve Aaron Gibson’s membership with LAMRS. Motion by Nick Barone, Second by Derek Griffin.

Motion passed unanimously.

______

PRESIDENT’S REPORT – Lloyd Lehrer

  • Medical Release forms are on-hand and members must fill them out.
  • Light Iron Digest magazine has our open house announcement and picture on 1/6 of a page!
  • Charlie Gilliland has moved to Oregon and resigned.

OLD BUSINESS – No report

NEW BUSINESS

  • Ron Varnell asks for a volunteer to fix Gordon Jeans’ trains. In return Gordon will donate a Daylight train and other rolling stock kits to the club. No volunteers were immediately heard.

DCC DISCUSSION–NEW BUSINESS

  • Lloyd Lehrer noted that the primary agenda of this is to discuss DCC. Everyone should have been notified
  • No motions were intended, just discussion
  • Jim Bright was given the gavel by Lloyd for directing the discussion – to be “legal.”
  • Lloyd Lehrer opened the discussion:
  • The old CMRI system is breaking down
  • The proposed system allows the layout to be operated in DCC or DC
  • Only two banks of relays required
  • Ron Varnell noted that the analog system has to work first flawlessly. Ron is learning this the hard way on his own layout. The cost and effort of such an analog system must be considered.
  • Allen Storey responded:
  • CMRI warped boards are causing the current “chattering” problem.
  • The proposed method utilizes decoders connected to track blocks.
  • The existing wire drops from the tracks are good.
  • Gordon Jeans asked whether his DC engines would still run and the answer is yes.
  • Gordon inquired about cost, the answer was that the convertible system costs approximately $4000 and the DCC only installation costs $2000.
  • Gordon further asked whether this system could be taken with us in case we moved and the answer from the floor was yes.

  • Fred Pausch noted the the DC would need to operate on DC while the DCC would need to utilize AC power.
  • Allen Storey responded that there would be a computer-controlled switch which selects which circuit.
  • Fred asked whether engines that were sold as capable of both DC and DCC would work – the response was yes.
  • Fred inquired whether this system is in use. The response was that the components are proved and the Lentz book covers how to build the system.
  • Nick Barone noted that the discussion should proceed at a measured pace to allow the membership time to absorb the information.
  • L.A. Roe asked if this is operationally proven in the field or published.
  • Allen Storey said that he and Bob Santelli are highly confident it would work and would be glad to setup a demonstration.
  • Dave Holmes that the old control system is not worth fixing.
  • Derek Griffin asks what components Dave is talking about
  • Ron Varnell notes that he is worried that we will be dependant upon one person again – with issues like getting John Smith to fly out.
  • Allen Storey he will document heavily and will hold training classes
  • Ron noted that he can call a serviceman for the standardized DCC system on his layout.
  • Ron suggested that for a pioneer application, we need to have a prototype test.
  • Bob Santelli noted that the entire layout will be either DC or DCC , but not both at once.
  • Bob consulted with Digitraxx regarding our concept and they said OK.
  • Lloyd Lehrer noted that one benefit of a system offering DC and DCC is that both types of clubs can operate on our layout.
  • Lloyd further noted that he will not convert all of his engines to DCC – because they are brass, cheap, too many, etc.
  • Derek Griffin note that operating sessions and run nights would be DC or DCC.
  • Ron Varnell asked for a straw vote for a $4,000 combination DC or DCC system. The straw vote had a majority in agreement.
  • In response to a question from Mike Cartabiano, Bob Santelli stated that the computer dispatching system would be Railroad & Company dispatching software.
  • It was asked how yards would work in DC mode. Turnouts would not be controlled by the hand held control. Yard panel switches or dispatcher computer control (mainline facia switches) would be used to control all turnouts, never the hand-held controller.
  • Mike Cartiabiano noted that both the Logging and Narrow Gage DCC conversions began with retention of some existing wiring; however, both soon learned that full rewiring is key.
  • Mike states that we are likely to replace most standard gage wiring.
  • He opposes “Mutt” systems and would rather have the service that comes with standard systems.

  • Allen Storey responds to Mike:
  • The installation plan will feature new busses and barrier strips.
  • Cutover to the new system would be moving drops from one set of lugs to another on the same barrier strip.
  • If a cutover problem occurs, we can always go back.
  • Dick Allmon runs Railroad and Company software and likes it.
  • We must use stranded wire, not solid.
  • Dick feels the concept is good, but he shares the concern of Mike Cartabiano regarding getting the proper signal.
  • He thinks the proposed system is ideal for DC only – even if we don’t implement DCC
  • Derek Griffin will contact Andy Hunter to jointly generate a master plan for the stranded-wire parallel buss system.
  • Nick Barone stated that we must not use existing drops since they are 24 gauge solid wire.
  • Allen Storey confirmed to Nick that the layout will be rewired.
  • The current wiring is a spider-web to the blocks. Control cards, blocks and turnouts – a triple spider web all over the layout.
  • The proposed wiring would have two parallel busses – a programming bus and an operations bus.
  • Fred Pausch asks if the mainline turnouts can be facia controlled as well as dispatcher-controlled, in order to facilitate solo or small group mainline operation.
  • Allen Storey replied that this capability exists and would be a decision for the club to make.
  • Nick Barone recalled 18 to 20 people voting for DCC in a recent survey.
  • Nick asked for a straw poll.
  • David Holmes notes the survey regarded moving to a new layout.
  • Cost estimate:
  • Either $4,000 for combination DC/DCC system
  • $2,000 for DCC only.
  • Neither include the cost to rewire the layout.
  • A friend of the club will give us a deal on some elements.
  • Upon inquiry, it was noted that the Narrow Gage spent less than $1,000 total, excluding donated wire.
  • Nick Barone noted that Digitrax gives a one-time discount to the club & members –conducted in one bulk purchase.
  • Lloyd Lehrer postulated that the club could give money to members to aid conversion.
  • Bob Santelli reiterated his offer to install one decoder for each member, but in the engine of his choice.
  • Bob offered to conduct a decoder installation clinic.
  • L.A. Roe was concerned about getting the tasks done, getting volunteers and who is going to climb under the layout.
  • Derek is optimistic about rewiring based upon the recent Harbor West rewiring completion.
  • Allen Storey suggests we install a second set of drops to facilitate a safe cutover.
  • Ron Varnell observed that a specific leader would be required for the rewiring task.
  • Bob Santelli stated this effort would break the boredom that results from a completed layout. Otherwise the standard gage will die and members will have no option other than to join the narrow gage.
  • Dick Allmon volunteers to help he standard gage control effort.
  • Derek Griffin asks Andy Hunter help make detailed plans. He was impressed with the narrow gage plan and layout drawings.
  • Lloyd Lehrer resumes the gavel and calls a straw vote:
  • DCC system only14
  • DC/DCC combo10
  • Fix the existing system 0
  • Dick Allmon will donate four pieces of track for a control system demonstration.
  • Dick also noted that if the club chose DCC only, that the club could purchase a number of club DCC engines.
  • Ron Varnell noted that he has many engines with regard to conversion.
  • L.A. Roe is opposed to DCC only since it will be a pain to convert all the old engines. Further, he is intimidated by the DT-400 throttles.
  • Mike Cartabiano notes that signals will be a must to avoid collisions.
  • Lloyd Lehrer confirmed that the system will be signal-capable.
  • Andy Hunter stated that signals could reasonably be installed.
  • Fred Pausch, answering L.A. Roe’s earlier comment, noted that there are less intimidating throttles that could be used.
  • Al Munson asked if the layout would be wired in one block.
  • Lloyd Lehrer responded that the system will have five boosters, each with four outputs, thus equaling 20 blocks.
  • Jim Bright stated that even with signals, a dispatcher will still be required to give priority to trains.
  • Lloyd Lehrer calls a straw vote:
  • If the system was DCC only, would you quit.
  • One vote – Would quit.
  • Balance – Would not quit.
  • Gordon Jeans noted he has 15 engines
  • Gordon also noted that the club is a democracy and should go for it.
  • Fred Pausch asked why no one else is using the DC/DCC combo system.
  • Dave Holmes suggested in theory that the $2,000 difference between the DCC/DC Combo and the DCC only could be spent on member engine conversions.
  • Dick Allmon suggested the $2K could be better spent on air conditioning.
  • Al Munson inquired about the implementation timetable and the state of the layout during conversion
  • Installation of the new system would be parallel to normal operation over six months, then cutover flexibly.
  • Lloyd Lehrer described the open house contingency plan. The mainline would be operated on one throttle with multiple trains on it “chasing tails.”
  • Bill Limburg and Derek Griffin noted that they had operated three trains at once reliably; however, the engines must be the same or very similar.
  • Andy Hunter stated that we should be focusing upon the open house right now, not DCC.
  • Lloyd Lehrer stated that a motion regarding DCC is intended for the October 4 business meeting.
  • Some noted that we should skip the business meeting in favor of open house preparation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS

  • Dave Holmes announced that, at the Torrance Public Library, Mike Martin’s father has arranged for us to have November to display our trains in their display cases. Please see him if interested.

GOOD OF THE ORDER

  • Nick Barone requested that the minutes of this meeting be issued within one week.

The meeting adjourned at 8:30 PM.

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