Accommodation Review Committee

Public Meeting no. 1 – Sharing the Data

Sudbury West Area Schools

Thursday, May 24, 2007

Lively District Secondary School Gymnasium

6:30 pm to 8:30 pm

MINUTES

Present:

Board Trustees – Gord Santala, Tyler Campbell, Dena Morrison, Doreen Dewar, Ruth Ward, Judy Hunda, Larry Killens, Jeanna Miller, Grace Fox

ARC Members - Judy Noble, Principal, Lively District Secondary School; Michele Henschel, Teacher, Lively District Secondary School;Julie Beare, School Council, Lively District Secondary School;

Lesley Fisher, Principal, Jessie Hamilton Public School;Tiina Bloomfield, School Council, Jessie Hamilton Public School;

Jack Mallette, Principal, R.H. Murray Public School; Heidi Green, School Council, R.H. Murray Public School;Cathy StadderWise, School Council, R.H. Murray Public School; Sandra Heerschap, Teacher, R.H. Murray Public School;

Sheryl Brown, School Council, George Vanier Public School;

Maj Myers, Principal, George Vanier Public School;

Dawn Chew, Principal, Copper Cliff Public School; Paul Giommi, School Council, Copper Cliff Public School;

Hazel Smith, Teacher, Jessie Hamilton Public School;Sue Whealon, School Council, Jessie Hamilton Public School;Gordon Apolloni, School Council, Copper Cliff Public School; Megan Bischoff, Teacher, Copper Cliff Public School;Ernie Heerschap, School Council, Lively District Secondary School;

Paul Baskcomb Community Representative, City of Greater Sudbury; Lesleigh Dye, Superintendent, Rainbow District School Board; Sharon Speir, Superintendent, Rainbow District School Board; Michèle Smethurst, Recording 1Secretary, Rainbow District School Board; Nicole Charette, Senior Advisor, Communications and Strategic Planning, Rainbow District School Board.

Admin Council – Jean Hanson, Director of Education, Diane Cayen Arnold, Superintendent of Business, Norm Blaseg, Superintendent

  1. Welcome

Superintendent Sharon Speir welcomed all and introduced herself as well as co-facilitator, Superintendent Lesleigh Dye.

Board Trustees, Administrative council, ARC members (as listed on website) as well as Paul Baskcomb from the Greater City of Sudbury were also introduced.

Superintendent Speir explained that the focus of tonight’s meeting would be to share the data.

Superintendent Dye went over the agenda and explained that the Questions and Answers period would be limited to 10 minutes after each Agenda item. She invited everyone to write down their questions on the chart paper or sticky notes provided. Superintendent Dye said they would strive to keep the meeting short, ending at 8:30 p.m. as scheduled.

  1. Overview of Accommodation Review process

Superintendents Speir and Dye presented an Overview of the Accommodation Review Process. See attached.

Questions were taken from the floor and were facilitated by Julie Beare, School Council member, Lively District Secondary School

  1. Overview of Board Data

Superintendent of Business Diane Cayen-Arnold presented an Overview of the Board Data. Printouts of the data were handed out. See attached.

Questions were taken from the floor and were facilitated by Tiina BloomfieldSchool Council member, Jessie Hamilton Public School;

  1. School Valuation Framework

Sharon Speir talked about the School Valuation Framework for which handouts would be made are available at end of the meeting and could also be found on the Board’s website. She stressed that these were not used for comparison but describe information provided for each school.

Questions were taken from the floor and were facilitated by Cathy Wise-Stadder, School Council member, R.H. Murray Public School.

  1. City Demographic Trends and Development Activity in Sudbury West

Paul Baskcomb presented and overview of demographics & development in the western portion of the City of Greater Sudbury. See attached.

Questions were taken from the floor and were facilitated by Paul Giommi, School Council member, Copper Cliff Public School.

  1. Purpose of next meeting

Superintendent Lesleigh Dye informed the meeting that the next Public Meeting will take place on June 20th at 6:30 p.m. in the Lively District Secondary School Gymnasium. The ARC will be meeting again prior to this to prepare.

Due to the time, there would be no Questions and Answers period but Superintendent Dye invited everyone to post their questions on the chart paper or send them to

Copies of the data presented as well as each school’s Valuation Framework were made available following the meeting. These documents as well as the minutes for this evening’s meeting with answers to written questions posted will be available for download on the website at rainbowschools.ca/boardroom/accommodation/SudburyWest

Superintendent Dye noted that all of the Rainbow Board’s trustees were present and she thanked them and members of Admin Council for attending.

Meeting adjourned at 8:40 p.m.

Question and Answer periods during Public Meeting

2.

Brenda Seguin – Jessie Hamilton P.S.

Q. Will there be voting this meeting or later?

Lesleigh Dye

A. The ARC committee will take into consideration the public’s input but will have the final vote by consensus. They will take their recommendations to the Admin Council who will then present it to the Board for final decision.

Andre Comeau – Jessie Hamilton P.S.

Q. One of the key parts that have not been mentioned is that the Board does not have to follow the ARC recommendations.

A. Sharon Speir

The public has the opportunity to make their views known, their voices will be heard but the Board Trustees will make the final decision.

Sean Newell-Barette – Copper Cliff P.S.

Q. Will there be the option of keeping all 5 schools open?

A. Lesleigh Dye

The process is to reduce surplus space and data reviewed by ARC. Enrolment projections provided by Principals and Board data show that Sudbury West has the most surplus space that needs to be addressed.

Mimi Wiseman – lives/works in Copper Cliff

Q. Would it be possible to find creative ways to use space in other ways?

A. Sharon Speir

The point of this process is to engage the public to offer solutions

Marcel Laplante – Lively D.S.S.

Q. Where is the excess space?

A. Lesleigh Dye

Diane Cayen-Arnold will explain this clearly during her presentation of the Board’s data.

André Comeau – Jessie Hamilton P.S.

Q. Why isn’t the Board doing work with other boards to solve this issue? Are we not eliminating possible options by not looking at them?

A. Sharon Speir

We will come back with an answer to this.

Q. Is there a same mandate for every ARC committee?

A. Yes

Q. Why was this area chosen?

A. Lesleigh Dye

Diane Cayen-Arnold will explain. The short answer is that Sudbury West has the most surplus space.

Lesleigh Dye announce they would take one more question, but invited everyone to write their questions on the chart paper or sticky notes to chart paper provided or sent their questions to . Answers would be posted to the website.

Paul Doyle – Retired teacher at Lively D.S.S.

Q. Will the committee consider past graphics, for example in the 70’s Lively High had 900 students and over the years has lost students to bussing into the city. LDSS is being penalized and a major part of the problem is the Board.

A. Sharon Speir

Will return with an answer for this

3.

Dave Rowell – Citizen Lively

Q. Why don’t we see other school information? It would be good to see the entire picture. Bussing is taking kids out of home community.

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

The capital advisory committee looked at areas with feeder schools and prioritized where the greatest needs are. The Ministry encourages boards to review accommodation. Valley schools were the first to be reviewed as there were enrolment pressures in one school and surplus space in the other. We will not be providing information for other schools, only Sudbury West.

Steve Sheehan –Teacher - Copper Cliff

Q. Is there a standard formula to predict enrolment?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

We look at progression, historical trends, growth/decline i.e. Industry closing. Principals also have a good sense of the community.

Q. Some principals are new to school and community.

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

They are in consultation with Superintendents

Jason Evan (NEVA?) - R. H. Murray

Comment: Data should have been given ahead of time

Q. What is the quality assurance of cost of repairs and who’s numbers do you go with?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

The Board hired and External Company to validate the Ministry’s costs. The Board goes with these numbers as they are from Northern Ontario Company. This information will be posted on the website.

Mini Wiseman –

Q. As these inspections were done in 2004, who updates the numbers as changes are made?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

The school board updates these on ongoing basis. The Ministry adds inflation factor

Q. Would it be possible to see information on the Northern Ontario contractor numbers?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

We will provide as much detail as possible.

Terry Antonioni – Jessie Hamilton P.S.

Q. I would like to challenge enrolment figures. There is much growth in the community and Principals may be fully aware of future development which would mean more kids, bigger tax base

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

Sincerely hopes there will be development. Paul Baskcomb will show data of activity. There is growth but not to the level to keep schools at full capacity.

Dan Foy – George Vanier P.S.

Q. What are the numbers projected then compared to now in the other accommodation review? Have a daughter in grade 5 who has had 4 different principals. Questions validity of numbers provided by them.

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

Numbers are validated by the superintendents.

Q. Other boards are building schools and kids are being sent there.

A. We have declining enrolment. The French Public board is a growing board and is getting funds from the Ministry to build for growth. Let me make it clear that our schools are not crumbling. If we can reduce the surplus space, we would get more dollars to renew our existing schools and provide a good learning environment for our students.

Q. Board will do what it wants. Lively is bleeding students into schools in town.

A. This is why we are asking for the public to offer solutions.

Sean Mitchell – Jessie Hamilton

Q. How does capital cost get weighed against cost of running school?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

Is it worth spending money or reduce excess space to get more money

Q. Would it be an option to build a new school?

A. Yes – this is why we need the public’s input, to provide solutions

4.

André Comeau – Jessie Hamilton P.S.

Q. In the value to the students, how do student performance numbers (EQAO) factor into the formula? Is this data being used in the decision?

A. Lesleigh Dye

The framework helps to provide an overall picture but we’re not looking at this data as a weighting factor.

Paul Com – Copper Cliff

Q. Will the final decision cause a school to become over capacitated? Is the decision better for the board or the student?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

The Ministry caps class size at 23 students. In 2007-2008 the Ministry wants this reduced to 20. We are not trying to jam students into classrooms.

Q. How are you going to keep class sizes small by closing schools?

A. We are not doing what is best for the board, we want to generate money to better utilize space which would be best for the student.

Jason Evan – R. H. Murray

Q. Are hard numbers part of data as compared to subjective data, for example times spent on busses. Can we get other data such as geographic areas?

A. Sharon Speir

Much of this data is found in the schools’ valuation framework

Diane Cayen-Arnold – part of the framework has had data such as average bus time. This data is provided by the consortium and all this information will be taken into consideration.

Ann Dupont

An observation:

Has gone through all this in the past. Has a son who was in a class of 45 students and she has switched school boards because of this.

Sharon Speir responded that the caps are province wide and we operate under guidelines. We don’t have an interest in making large classes.

5.

Dan Foy

Q. Has there been consideration given to the Nickel prices?

A. CCMHC only predicts 1 to 2 years down the line

Michele Munroe – Copper Cliff

Q. Will the ARC interest change when 2006 census numbers are in?

A. Diane Cayen-Arnold

We are working with the numbers provided tonight. They will not be revised.

???? – child at Jessie Hamilton

Q. Will there be the capability to find out ….Whitefish for R.H. Murray. The announcement may change decision.

Development activity map when 2006 numbers are available.

R…. – Jessie Hamilton

Q. What is the value of Principals evaluating data?

A. Paul Baskcomb

The data is not complex, simply a population count of the time. Principals my have an advantage being in the community.

Q. Principals are limited by not knowing business technical analysis? Would there be a benefit to hire outside architectural firm to board differing to a committee.

A. Paul Baskcomb

Board has experience with these matters.

Diane Cayen-Arnold invited Director Jean Hanson to speak.

Director Hanson started off by saying what a great community this is. She spoke of how firms were hired by the school boards to assess and how choices needed to be made in order to improve how space was used in schools. She mentioned how accurately Principals have been able to project enrolment.

Written Questions

  1. Copper Cliff & predicted enrolment:

We are surrounded by schools who are over capacity – Jessie to west but also McLeod & Wembley. Would the ARC consider an option to change boundaries to east and/or west to increase enrolment and relieve pressure at these schools (& also improve the utilization numbers?

  1. Census stats provided were for ages 0-14 years. Since these changes will be effective in Sept ’08 should 15-18 years not also be considered since it will affect them as well or will the decision be shoved down their throats as it as in Levack???
  1. Copper Cliff enrolment – Are projections for this community (notably one that is not growing from a new housing perspective but is certainly growing with young families with children under 5) inclusive (or have they been informed by) statistics related to turnover or birthrate or board affiliations?
  1. Can you provide us with enrolment numbers for each school for the past perhaps 20 years?
  1. Has the committee taken into consideration the savings from cutting off the transportation to the “special” program schools i.e. LOCKERBY. Parents have to realize to save the public schools, you have to save the high school so the communities’ economy remains viable. Who will move to an area that does not have a high school. The S.O.S. campaign 5 years ago tried to get this across to this community and still the parents send their kids into town. The board needs to stop the bussing and the parents need to realize that our high school is just as good as LOCKERBY/LO-ELLEN.
  1. As mentioned but not answered, ho would eliminating free bussing to Sudbury from outlying areas affect enrolment figures – More students, More dollars.
  1. Next Public Meeting needs questions & answers to be addressed by Board members.
  1. OLD SCHOOLS:

How much would it cost to close Jessie and George Vanier which are located in prime development areas, and build a new school to accommodate these students, perhaps property on the top of Blacklake Rd? One school 86% capacity.

  1. Why has the board waited so long to make significant repairs? It sounds like decisions have already been made. Is there really any results going to come from public input? There is talk that the decision has already been made to close all the schools in question except Lively High which will be retro-fitted for a “Super school” for JK-8 and the High school students will be shipped out to Lockerby and Lo-Ellen. Bottom line: Are you simply filling the 4 public meeting quota?
  1. Can we have a summary of all questions asked (even those that you are not able to answer quickly) so that we have a record of what has been asked?
  1. Is it really fair or prudent to base as important an indicator as enrolment projections on the opinions 0 not supported by a formula of less than a handful of people who may not live in the community?
  1. There is potential for a new Prov. Gov. in October. Is it prudent to make these decisions now?
  1. If capital funding comes from reducing space in Sudbury West, will it be put back into Sudbury West? (or sued as the Board sees fit within the Board)
  1. How many children residing in Walden are currently bussed elsewhere and what is the cost of that bussing?
  1. Would your capital estimates not have more validity if conducted by an impartial 3rd party and not be vested interests like the school board and Ministry?
  1. Has the decision been made about our schools already and are these meetings just a formality?
  1. What is the cost to bus students out of Lively?
  1. Closures to make year end look good
  1. Transportation costs? Danger to students being bussed.
  1. Move Jessie and Copper Cliff to Lively (D.S.S.) – but keep Lively has the Hawks (comment from 11 year old student)
  1. Why is the biggest surplus school in the district not being considered right now – Sudbury Secondary? It is the oldest and costliest to repair.
  1. How many job losses are you looking at (teachers, aides, janitors, etc) school bus drivers?
  1. All the current repairs at LDSS (new windows, blinds, elevator) does it affect the current estimated cost to repair the building?
  1. Why are there no cost projections for bussing to all magnet schools? Is not the lowered enrolment for LDSS directly related to bussing? How many students leave for Magnet schools like Lockerby and Lo-Ellen?
  1. Has Northern Ontario’s unique situation re: less dense population base been taken into consideration? Our education taxes seem to be funding population problems in Southern Ontario and not addressing needs in Northern Ontario. You are using and Ontario Ministry based formula which doesn’t seem to consider rural schools and their needs.
  1. Under FOI legislation, is the Board obligated to provide the detailed Principal’s enrolment predictions and/or utilization/enrolment of rest of Board schools?
  1. As a correction, Jessie Hamilton’s present FCI is not prohibitive, but is critical, so prompt repair is warranted.
  1. Will you assure that present “walkers” won’t end up on a bus? I see this as serious jeopardy to child’s benefit.
  1. Why haven’t repairs been done yearly as needed? Why did we let it balloon to such a high cost?
  1. Is Dalron interested in any of these properties?
  1. If high school boundaries were respected, how would the capacity numbers change? (This should be an easy calculation)
  1. Why will the Board not share all capacity/cost data for all Rainbow Schools?
  1. Can you share the rational for the decision made in the Valley? Details please. (1 elementary school)
  1. Did the JHPS (Jessie Hamilton Public School) enrolment projections include the city approved 155 new lots in the JH catchment are?
  1. Board relying on City data, yet city admits data is grossly out of date. Why not wait until 2006 census data?

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