Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions

Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions

Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer

Volume 4

The Case of Mrs. Ett – 1947

Page

Introduction 2

Session 1 4

Session 2 9

Session 3 23

Session 4 37

Session 5 50

Session 6 63

Session 7 75

Session 8 88

Session 9 101

Session 10 114

Session 11 126

Session 12 139

Session 13 150

Session 14 163

Session 15 175

Session 16 185

These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold.

Throughout these interviews the response of the counselor (C) (Rogers), and the subject (S) are numbered for easy reference.

Rogers’ Transcripts, volume 4, ETT, Contents, page 1

THE CASE OF MRS. ETT - 1947

INTAKE CONTACT

Mrs. Ett, a young married woman, came to the Counseling Center to discuss the possibility of coming for counseling interviews. She had heard about the Center from a friend, but was quite uncertain whether she wished the services of the Center. She talked briefly with one of the counselors, mentioning some of her problems, and after the service was explained, decided to come in. No notes were kept of this brief interview. An appointment was made for her to see the counselor who handled the contacts. She was pleased when she learned she was to see Mr. L., since she had heard of him before.

Comments on the Reading of the Case

All but the first interview are phonographically recorded and transcribed. The first interview is reported from counselor notes kept during the conversation. Identifying information has been altered and in a few places several sentences of identifying material have been cut out. In no case has any essential material been omitted.

In reading phonographically recorded material it has been found that an erroneous mind set can give very different meaning to the case. Several people who have read the transcription of interviews, and then listened to the recordings, have observed, "This isn't at all the way I thought it was". Therefore, a few comments about the voice and attitudes of both client and counselor seem in order.

Mrs. Ett proved to be a person with strong and colorful attitudes. When depressed, she seemed very depressed, when angry, very angry. She talked rapidly much of the time, but at other times slowly. Some of the pauses are indicated. In general, conversation in counseling never goes as rapidly as it is read. Therefore to get a true picture of Mrs. Ett's conversation it should be read colorfully, and at varying speeds.

In regard to the counselor's voice and tone, his responses are not statements, or judgments but are slowly spoken attempts to voice Mrs. Ett's attitudes, in an effort to see if he is correctly and deeply understanding her. There is warmth and empathy in his voice. As the later interviews show, the understanding is sufficiently deep that the client frequently breaks in to help the counselor complete his response. In general, the counselor items will be most accurately understood if they are read with the attitude, "I am trying to understand your attitudes, and trying to formulate sensitively the way it seems to you. Does this statement approximate your thinking and feeling at the moment?".

The counselor responses tended, in this case to be given quite slowly, sometimes hesitantly. The first four pages of the second interview have been transcribed in such a way as to try to indicate the quality of the conversation as well as its content. Parenthetical evaluations of the tone of voice, and dashes to indicate pauses (each dash represents approximately one second) may give the reader a somewhat more accurate picture. Care has been taken to keep all the "uhs" and other hesitancies of speech. Beyond these four pages the transcription is accurate but not as completely meticulous.

Rogers’ Transcripts, Volume 4, ETT, Introduction, page 2

This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.

Throughout these interviews the response of the counselor (C) (Rogers), and the subject (S) are numbered for easy reference

Mrs. ETT

First Interview (several days later)

(This interview is recorded from counselor's notes)

After mutual introductions, the counselor asked Mrs. Ett if she cared to tell why she had come to the Center. The interview then went as follows:

S1: I find that I am troubled by doubts and uncertainties and things like that, although I don't know of any reason why I should be so concerned. Financially I am well fixed. I'm very compatible with my husband; have two lovely children, I should be the happiest person in the world.

C1: You feel you have every reason to be content but that actually you are troubled by a number of uncertainties.

S2: Yes. I get these very depressive moods; either I'm way up or I'm way down. (long pause).

C2: Would you want to tell me a little bit more about that?

S3: Yes. The thing that seems important is, that I am artistically unable to express myself. I have good talent in a lot of fields, but when I try to express myself along any one line or to try to do any one thing, I can't do it well. My husband thinks this is all due to lack of will power on my part.

C3: You feel you have real ability, but finding a channel of expression, that's the problem, is that it?

S4: Yes, I think that whole thing is very important. If I could get out something of what is in me - I have so much drive and energy; I have so much creative power stored up in me. If I could only get it out, it would help so much.

C4: If you could only release the dam, and let some of the energy pour out, that might help?

S5: That's just it. Now take for example if I read a book; I can't be happy about it, because I feel as though I could write it better. If I see a painting I can't be happy or get satisfaction out of looking at it, because I feel that I could have done it better. But if I try to paint, or write, or do anything creative, I get so disgusted with the...with my effort that I just give up. I suppose you'd say that I'm a perfectionist.

C5: It always seems to you inwardly that you could create something much better that the things you see or read, but when you try anything of that kind, you simply can't put up with your own product.

S6: Yes. And then there's another thing, with my children; I do the things that are good for them; I do the things that I think a mother should do for her children. I guess in one sense I do the things that I think my mother should have done for me. (She enlarges on this) Other people compliment me on the way I take care of my children, but it doesn't suit me; I know that the relationship isn't real.

C6: That is, others would think that you are doing a fine job, but as far as you're concerned you feel that the relationship with your children is not a genuine one.

S7: That's right. I have two lovely children; Evelyn is 2½ and Bonnie is 8 months old. Now one funny thing; when I was pregnant with Evelyn I was calm and happy and took things in my stride; I just seemed to be a very different sort of person. That calm attitude lasted until she was 7 months old. During that time I felt relaxed and nothing really bothered me; even my husband noticed it, and he hoped that motherhood would change me.

C7: During that time you felt very satisfied and relaxed.

S8: Yes. Lately, though, that's no longer true. I've been keeping some of my attitudes from my husband because the way I think and feel seems to upset him. So I just take an extra pill every now and then (pause) I have this terrible fatigue all the time. I've checked with a physician; he tells me I have a basal metabolism of minus 17, but I'm taking thyroid; it seems as though that ought to help, but lately these depressed moods and this feeling that I'm blocked in my creative abilities; all those things seem to be worse.

C8: That is, you mean there might be some physical basis for part of these attitudes but that at any rate they are worse than they were formerly.

S9: Yes that's right. Lately I find myself thinking more about my mother. I keep thinking about her. I didn't do that during that period with Evelyn. She really dropped out of my mind during that period. I guess at that time I didn't have to create. I felt that I was creating within myself, and I didn't have to show people (pause) I suppose that word "show" is a key. I never thought of it in quite that way.

C9: During that period of pregnancy and so on, you didn't have to worry about creating, because you were creating and you didn't have to prove anything to others, is that it?

C10: My husband says that my pregnancy was the one thing that I ever would finish. He says that I never finish anything that I start, and that that was the only thing that I have ever carried through. I guess that's true.

C10: You feel there is some truth to the notion that very rarely do you complete things.

S11: Perhaps I ought to say that this is my second marriage. Possibly one of the things that troubles me is that I have before me this example of great success, namely; my husband. He's really a remarkable person. He does things, all kinds of things and he gets them done. He's very talented; he's very efficient. I don't resent it, but there in him is the very thing that I'd like to be doing.

C11: It's sort of disturbing to you to have all this before you, this example of real ability and solid achievement, is that it?

S12: Yes. I realize that I'd like to prove to him that I'm as good as he is.

C12: There's an underlying sense of competition there, of wanting to prove your ability to him. (pause)

S13: I have this darling child who is 2, but I get furious when he says that she looks something like his family.

C13: You don't like it when he claims a resemblance to his side of the family .

S14: Now Bonnie who is only 8 months- I don't have as many emotional reactions around her. I don't seem to find her so upsetting, but I have more real satisfactions in her.

C14: You find her more satisfying and less upsetting to you. You don't feel quite as much emotionally involved with her, is that it?

S15: Yes. I think that's true (pause) Lately these depressed moods have been worse and worse. I wonder how much a person's physical condition would have to do with it. Also I wonder about the weather; I know that damp heavy days are bad and make my moods worse. When I'm in one of these moods I just don't pay as much attention to my appearance.

C15: It puzzles you what sort of factors could lie behind these times when you feel down.

S16: Yes. Well I've had a strong sense of inferiority for a long time. It was encouraged by my mother; I was large for my age, and then when I was about 15 and 17 years I wasn't attractive to boys my own age, and that made me feel very badly. I didn't learn until I was 18 that I was attractive to older men and that helped. When I found that I was attractive to older men I went around with them a great deal, maybe I was a little bit promiscuous. But then I was married when I was 20 to a musician. I didn't love him, oh sexually we got completion, but there was no real interest in one another, so we got a divorce. Then I got some jobs - I held various jobs. The best one was music librarian in a radio station. I have a very keen ear for music and a good memory (she goes on to tell of the opportunities and responsibilities of that position). I was very happy in that job, it was a different type of happiness than I had when I was pregnant with Evelyn, but it was exciting and I was happy. I had a real niche for myself.

C16: You found a real sense of achievement and contentment in that job and had respect for your own abilities.

S17: Yes. And then I met Arnold. That brought in a lot of conflict there. You see I had had an affair with Joseph. Well, that was mostly sexual. It was the first time that I had realized that sex could be marvelous. We were very much in tune with each other in the physical aspects of sex. I went with him for quite a while, but I broke it up forcefully because I realized that we couldn't have children. He didn't make enough to support both of us and a family.

C17: It was satisfying sexually, but you felt that it really wasn't a practical basis for marriage.

S18: Then I went through a year of conflict between the two men. I felt that Arnold would make an ideal family man, and I suppose the long and short of it is that I made him marry me. We both realize that.

C18: You feel that you really took the initiative in that respect.

S19: Yes. Then I worked for a time, then was fired because I wouldn't go out with the boss. I knew it was coming before I was fired. But shortly after that I went into a real depression. I went to a psychiatrist and had two treatments; that was very unsatisfactory. I didn't get anything out of that. He advised strongly against pregnancy. He felt it would be bad for me. I knew I should get pregnant; tried to; and finally I did. Then everything was better.

C19: If I understand that, you mean that losing your job really bowled you over, but you thought that having a youngster might help and you went ahead to do so in spite of psychiatric advice.

S20: Yes, and it helped a great deal, but then since the pregnancy with Bonnie, things have gradually gotten less good. I can't understand that. Sometimes I've wondered if maybe the reason for the trouble now is that I have to prove to myself that pregnancy wasn't the whole answer to everything.

C20: You feel that you've sort of gone down hill since the birth of your second youngster, and that possibly you're feeling that pregnancy does not provide the answer that you thought it did (pause). I see that our time is up, perhaps we should stop for today. Would you like to come back?