Cameron: Welcome to Therapists Uncensored, a podcast where therapists freely speak their minds about real life matters.
Ann: Right, in the spirit of being of uncensored, today we have a brave therapist who stepped forward admitting that she doesn't understand enough about attachment. And this is a big deal because as therapists, we feel like we are supposed to know a lot about everything. So kudos to those of us brave enough in the world to say when we don't know. In this episode Sue Marriott talks with her fellow therapist, Traci Campbell, about attachment theory and how it affects our adult relationships. Now if these ideas are new to you, don't worry. Together, Traci and Sue, are going to explain it and break it down for you in a really easy and entertaining way. So let's get going, and don't worry. There's more information in our show notes that you will see graphics, and that will help you get it as well. So let's take a listen.
Sue: So here is what literally happened. This was actually fun. I was actually preparing to do a podcast on the basics of attachment, and I got this call from you that said, what?
Traci: I just said hey Sue. I am really confused about attachment theory. And I had done some training-
Sue: Nobody is believing you right now. This actually happens.
Traci: This really did happen I did like a pretty intense several months of training and I left after several months and thought there are still a lot of things that I don't know so I called you and I said can you teach me some things
Sue: So I said absolutely that we're going to record it
Traci: To which I freaked out and here I am
Sue: You were just happy we weren't videoing
Traci: I'm very happy that we aren't videoing
Sue: So I'm totally happy to have the conversation and one of the things that's always the thing about this is sensitivity about not knowing things about things we think we're supposed to know. And so I want to start off by really appreciating that you were the kind of therapist and person that lets yourself ask questions and seek knowledge and sort of reach out for things that you think will be meaningful to you. And not have to pretend oh I already know it all. So I just want to start with the vulnerability of coming in and asking questions and having this go out to the world. The judgment of that is courageous, and the truth is, and part of what I'm so excited about this, I think the questions that you have and the conversations that you want to have are exactly the conversations that our audience, who is super smart, they're lifelong learners, they're interested in where the rubber meets the road, and how this stuff affects their life. So I think it's a perfect setup. So where do you want to start?
Traci: Well, you know, I guess what I'm curious about, as a therapist, the way I want to understand it more it is, as a therapist and a client, how does what happened in our early life really affect us now? And then if as therapist like where do we go from there? And as a non-therapist, just as a client, how does it affect me? How does it affect me with my clients? How does it affect me in my relationships? And so-
Sue: Exactly. What's the big deal? Why is everybody talking about this thing? We're trying to paddle towards security no matter where we start. So I want to start with security. So if we basically get it right, we feel understood in the world, it's good enough environment, we're going to develop this system of securities. So if you think of a little toddler, they're holding the skirt of the mom, but then guess what happens when they feel like their battery is full? They run and play. What real security is is this idea of going in the world and exploring, but then you get scared because something happens in the world, and guess what you do? You run back to your secure base, and then you fill your battery, and then you go out and explore in the world, and you go to the playground, and you ride your big wheel, and you go big big and bold. And then you get nervous, and you get tired, or at the end of the day and you run back to your secure base
Traci: It's a great way to explain that.
Sue: Well that's the loop. That's kind of what we want. And then, going back to adults, the gist of this is that even if we didn't get it as kids there's a possibility of getting it as adults. If we partner with a secure adult, even if we're in some of these other categories that I'm about to talk about, being with a secure partner converts us to what they call earned secure. Which basically just means we we don't start with a secure loop, but we build it on top of a more disrupted loop. Alright so, I want to move towards some of the ways that things can go wrong. That's the way things could go right. But are we good there?
Traci: Yes, makes sense.
Sue: So what I said was if 70% of the time you get that, then you're good to go, right? But if there's not enough reliable attuned, accurately aware person/primary, you don't need a bunch of people you just need the person, if that's not the case, then what typically happens is that we start doing attachment behaviors. Which is we signal distress, we whine, we cry, we get mad.
Traci: What did you say attachment behaviors?
Sue: Yeah. So our attachment system, if we get separated from our primary, we get upset. So if this isn't happening, our signals of upset begin to increase initially initially they begin to increase. Like where were you? You didn't text. What's going on? Wait that's not what you said. You begin to show signs of distress, and so you're seeking, you're scanning, you're clinging. Those things begin to happen. So again if that goes, you pop back up to the security loop. But with what we're talking about now is when that doesn't go well. And when it doesn't go well, we basically fall. So let's go back to childhood. So you are a child, and you fall down ,and no one notices, for example. So you don't have your primary person that is accurately, empathically scanning and attached.
Traci: Like the primary person who pays attention?
Sue: Right. So here's the gist of the research, what basically ends up happening is that- there's forms of insecurity. I talked about forms of security, and now there's insecurity. And they kind of fall in two camps. So the first camp is where that you fall, and nobody notices. You cry, and they're real slow to get you. Okay I'll give you something to cry about, right? Is that familiar from East Texas?
Traci: Very (Laughter). You're speaking my language.
Sue: Believe me, it's my language too. So one side of insecure attachment has to do with when your rebuffed, when you're rejected, when you're pushed away. So in other words, those signals of distress get pushed pushed out. So guess what you do if you get pushed out every time that you signal distress, what do you think happens?
Traci: You stop showing distress.
Sue: Totally right. It would be stupid to be trying to get up on the couch as a toddler when, by getting up on the couch, you get pushed down, right? You get shoved away. So here's the really very interesting part, so this one side of attachment, which is going to be the avoidant dismissive, the side that is zipped up- I don't need you. Whatever. Don't let the door hit you in the ass. You just go right on down the road. So that's how it ends up looking in adult life.
Traci: If someone doesn't notice. Like if you fall and someone does not notice when you're younger?
Sue: A lot. Remember you've got 70%.
Traci: Got it
Sue: But when it happens over and over and over. But what's really sad about this, and again, I feel like I'm in all of these categories, and I can talk more about this later about why that is so. If the distress gets you rebuffed, ignored, neglected, if people miss it- and that can be for lots of reasons. It might be their own attachment histories, or it might be poverty, it might be drug addiction, it might be depression, postpartum. I don't know why. But for whatever sets of reasons, and we're not blaming parents here, we're not throwing anybody under the bus, we are just saying: if you little Traci, when you needed something naturally, and it was repeatedly not acknowledged and not responded to, then you're going to start deactivating that distress, and you're going to just bypass it. So what these kids look like, even at one year old, in the strain situation. They go into a room. The mom leaves. These kids like play their xylophone. They act like they don't even know that the mom is gone at 1 year old. This is already a system that is intact. Basically, to use therapy language for just one second,their represational system of relationships, it's like the software. The software is getting laid down. Don't go to anyone. You can't rely on anyone. So mom leaves. Child play's xylophone or plays whatever. Pretends like they don't notice. Mom comes back, and here is the real clue, mom comes back, and they still pretend not to notice. They are like whatever. It's not like their needs are gone. They have just deactivated their distress, and so they literally, they grow up, and guess what, these are the people on the computer that are self-soothing with things. They're very good at autoregulation, taking care of themselves. Does that make sense?
Traci: Yeah.
Sue: And because they have learned- these are the kids who have given up hope- they have learned don't rely on anyone, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, take care of yourself, screw need, screw vulnerability, screw expressiveness, and that just gets you killed, right? So that's one packet of insecurity. That's the dismissive/avoidant side. Stan Tadcan talks about this. He is one of the authors who has done a really great job of bringing this primary attachment research to therapists and to the public, and the language that he uses for it is Island. You become an island.
Traci: Are these people who withdraw?
Sue: They withdraw. They stonewall.
Traci: Can't read their expressions?
Sue: Oh absolutely. They're not as good at reading other people's expression.
Traci: Do they look like they're holding something back?
Sue: Well they do not perceive that they're holding anything back. You're the needy one. Why the hell are you texting me so much, Jesus Christ? These are folks that I have to literally teach, and again there's a part of me that falls in this category, but you have to literally teach when your partner says, and they're texting, and they say on my way... Really, in therapy, what they will say to you is, like what's that about? Like duh. So you have to literally reprogram. No on my way is good for connection. It's just a way of saying hey babe I'm coming. Like it's a connector. So their appropriate response should be, on the text, yay. So they won't feel that naturally, but if they can learn to do the right thing, it will warm their relationship up. They will have somebody in their life. These are not people that want to be alone. It's not like these are introverts. These are people that want to be connected, but connection is frightening. Here's the rub, they do not know that it's frightening. They think everybody else is a little bit wacky. Or I should say we think everybody else- when I am in my avoidant state, I think everybody is a little bit too needy and I am the one that's okay.
Traci: So they are not introverts?
Sue: No not introverts.
Traci: I would have thought something different
Sue: Introversion and extraversion is a different plane. This is much more about people's representational expression in the world. It's like the software. It's like what you've taken in about the world.
Ann: Okay don't put pressure on yourself to get all of this in one first listen. We have lots more information in the show notes, and you can always go back and listen again at another time, go slower, or rewind. And if this is too basic for you, no worries there as well, as we are just getting started, and we will keep expanding on these ideas and getting more advanced as we go along.
Sue: Alright, so are you ready to pop over to the other version of insecurity?
Traci: Yeah. So that was the first?
Sue: Yeah. So at the top we have security. That's, if you've heard other previous podcasts, that is the prefrontal cortex that is our best selves that is what we want.
Traci: I'm glad we are going back over this.
Sue: Security is the gold standard. That is the big old beating hard in the front of your forehead, the orbifrontal cortex. That is like when a bad thing happens we bounce. We are more resilient. We are healthier. We think, you know, when are partner hasn't texted we think, so they must be really busy. Avoidants don't even notice that the partner hasn't texted. And then somebody- are you okay to move into the other form of insecurity?
Traci: Yeah
Sue: So there's two kinds of insecurity, organized insecurity, according to the research. And the research is related to Mary Main and John Bolby and Ainsworth. And then people who have taken further are Dan Siegel, Stan Tadkin, Stephen Porges. We have a resource list on our website that will have all of the original thinkers. And what we are contributing, right now as we are doing, is translating that into normal speak, into human speak. Okay, so we have security. And did you know that at least 50% of the public is secure? I always thought it was like Bigfoot, you know? Everybody talks about security, but it doesn't really exist. 50%. So even if you have 12 kids, if you have a secure history yourself, you're more likely to have 12 secure kids. So it's not attention. I think it's more about accuracy truthfully.
Traci: Like really seeing who you are?
Sue: Yeah you might get one twelfth of the attention, but if you get it well, and you feel gotten, you're going to be ok. You're going to neurological be more intact. It helps with friendship making. It helps with grades. The potential of your IQ. It helps when bad things happen resilience. Even when traumatic things happen you are much more likely to do well. If you have an insecure background or if you are in the insecure category, bad things happen, you're much more likely to get PTSD or to get more intractable problems. So are we ready to go to the second version of insecurity? Am I going too fast?